tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post3966560446697483849..comments2024-03-28T22:08:48.577-07:00Comments on Chant du Départ: The Blue and the GrayOldAFSargehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comBlogger62125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-90921985895261345042018-12-09T13:48:09.199-08:002018-12-09T13:48:09.199-08:00As to the southern climate, a lot of folks have no...As to the southern climate, a lot of folks have no idea the effect climate has on history.<br /><br />I spent a summer on the Mississippi Gulf coast, a fellow learns to sweat down there!OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-695676394324905062018-12-09T13:46:39.135-08:002018-12-09T13:46:39.135-08:00You know your history Larry!You know your history Larry!OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-22873330278829148922018-12-09T00:38:52.259-08:002018-12-09T00:38:52.259-08:00In the end, the vulnerability of whites and the ev...<br />In the end, the vulnerability of whites and the even greater vulnerability of Indians to tropical and semi-tropical "fevers" probably had as much as anything to do with causing the Civil War. The combination of that and the climate shock that helped kill so many of the Scotch and Irish "involuntarily indentured servants" in their first Southern summer performing hard, hard labor in the 17th Century really were the roots of the slavery issue in the US.<br />Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13296988746956477216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-34544487740353978792018-12-09T00:38:42.807-08:002018-12-09T00:38:42.807-08:00@Tman2,
I agree that it's devilishly difficult...@Tman2,<br />I agree that it's devilishly difficult to figure out root causes of why the Civil War happened. There were too many intertwined things happening at once, with histories going back decades and sometimes centuries. I've even seen one proposition that (unknowingly to the participants), it was an echo of the English Civil War. with descendants of Puritans and others aligning once more over different flashpoints against a Cavalier-descended leadership with Scots-Irish supporters. It was more subtle than that, and I'm not sure I buy into it very much, but he had some good points.<br /><br />Yes, I think Massachusetts originally legislated chattel slavery for commercial purposes -- at that time, so they could sell off prisoners of Indian Wars and those sold to them by their Indian allies to West Indian plantations. However slaves existed and captives were sold before 1640. Just like England. England eventually effectively ended slavery within the British Isles in the first half of thee 1700s (the Irish may beg to differ), but that was by case law, not legislation, and there were examples of African slaves in England even until the 1780s (a bare handful of elderly ones, IIRC). New England began getting some African slaves before 1640, and by 1700 were getting into shipping in a big way, which obviously included the most profitable -- rum, sugar, and the African slaves needed to produce that sugar. Whites had a lamentable survival rate in the West Indies, and Indians fared even worse.<br /><br />Massachusetts had ended slavery through case law in a series of cases in the early 1780s, and free Africans were able to vote around that time. By 1788, they'd declared the slave trade illegal in Massachusetts, although that didn't prevent slave traders based in Boston from carrying it on elsewhere, at least for a few decades. But not in the US since Congress acted nearly as soon as the Constitution allowed in abolishing the importation of slaves into America in 1808. Profit often trumps morals, and there were some smugglers right up to the eve of the Civil War. But New England had pretty much nothing to do with slavery in America after 1808, though they were involved for a time with transporting slaves to Brazil. Off the top of my head, I can't remember if that was the sort of smuggling that Hawkins did into Spanish colonies in the 16th Century, or if it was legal. But it was increasingly dangerous with the Royal Navy actively suppressing the slave trade from Africa, along with what comparatively little support the US Navy was able to provide.<br /><br />It was Admiral Sir John Hawkins who began the African slave trade for England in 1567, and started the whole English involvement in the Triangular Trade. It was well established long before there were any permanent English colonies in North America. The Dutch, obviously, along with the Portuguese were also involved. All the early African slaves -- most of those imported in the 17th Century, were imported by English ships, along with some Dutch and Portuguese smugglers. And why were they brought? Because especially the southern planters were willing to pay high prices. So it's a bit like arguing whether the Colombian narco-lords were more responsible for the American drug epidemic, or the Americans who provided the demand in the first place, without which, there would've been no narco-lords. It's not like any of the ships importing slaves landed like pirates and forced unwilling people to pay high prices. If it's a new product (slaves were far from new, being older than history), a supply may create demand, like iPods. But it's nearly always the other way around: the demand induces others to find a way to supply the goods.<br />Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13296988746956477216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-2056197688841727422018-12-07T18:15:03.534-08:002018-12-07T18:15:03.534-08:00Those Prussians made very good logistical use of t...Those Prussians made very good logistical use of their railways to defeat France in 1870. Damned near did it again in 1914.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-47863727725487995882018-12-07T18:13:29.289-08:002018-12-07T18:13:29.289-08:00Excellent point!Excellent point!OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-24761808207366489412018-12-07T18:12:49.326-08:002018-12-07T18:12:49.326-08:00From a book I'm currently reading (The Warrior...From a book I'm currently reading (The Warrior Generals: Combat Leadership in the Civil War by Thomas Buell), the author argues that Grant was often a poor judge of character, some of his staff weren't very good. But yes, he was saddled with those political generals.<br /><br />I agree to some extent that Lee is overrated and Grant underrated, Buell seems to agree.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-66513614232050268112018-12-07T18:07:55.529-08:002018-12-07T18:07:55.529-08:00Tman2 - I think there's probably enough blame ...Tman2 - I think there's probably enough blame to go around in the North as well as the South.<br /><br />Even today, some folks don't care if they're pursuit of profit hurts some. It's probably been going on since Cain slew Abel.<br /><br />Well reasoned points on both your's and Larry's comments.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-45789425892717053562018-12-07T18:05:59.273-08:002018-12-07T18:05:59.273-08:00Good points Larry, a lot of folks forget about Ind...Good points Larry, a lot of folks forget about Indian slavery.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-89863805455289849072018-12-07T17:42:06.914-08:002018-12-07T17:42:06.914-08:00Thanks, Larry, for your helpful comments.
One o...Thanks, Larry, for your helpful comments. <br /><br />One of the things we all should acknowledge is how devilishly difficult and unresolvable some of the questions are. My comment was intended to be a once-over-lightly discussion of an immensely complicated – and still contested – period of our history. Thanks, again, for your amplifications. <br /><br />I agree that the “mercantilist imposition” began when we were a British colony. It was, in fact, one of our principal grievances leading to our secession from Great Britain. The Declaration of Independence enumerates the contentious issues in detail. New England attempted, and did, impose a continuation of some of these policies; especially after King Cotton agriculture became an attractive investment opportunity and a major source of tariff income. <br /><br />As I mentioned in my previous post, there was no legal basis for chattel slavery in the North American colonies until Massachusetts created it in the 1640s, probably as a commercial venture. The “poor choice,” in retrospect, was importing Africans for labor in the first instance; all work until well into the 19th Century was performed by human or animal muscle power, sometimes aided by mechanical advantage. The South possibly could have built their own slave trading vessels, but opted to stick with agriculture rather than compete with New England and, later, New York City, which became the center of the “Cotton Triangle” early in the 19th century.<br /><br />Recommended reading: Complicity: How The North Promoted, Prolonged, and Profited from Slavery,” by three reporters from the Hartford Currant, published in 2005.<br />Tman2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-61344320475554763962018-12-06T20:21:18.982-08:002018-12-06T20:21:18.982-08:00And the Prussian General Staff was a keen observer...And the Prussian General Staff was a keen observer of that. The South simply sucked at logistics, and all of the courage of their men couldn't overcome their relative lack of everything beginning especially in 1863. One target of the 1863 campaign was Harrisburg, in large part to seize supplies, especially shoes and boots. Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13296988746956477216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-86532768472420127252018-12-06T20:11:47.690-08:002018-12-06T20:11:47.690-08:00While New England shipowners (and there were a lot...While New England shipowners (and there were a lot of shipowners because New England built a LOT of ships) played a major role in the Triangular Trade, it is incorrect to say that it was, "another part of their mercantilist imposition on the southern agricultural economies," for the great majority of the period up until 1808. That was a <b>British</b> imposition carried out under British laws and regulations, along with things like banning factories in the colonies, and forcing importation of most manufactured goods. It was British mercantilist policy of well over a century, carried forward a while. Nothing stopped the south from building their own ships and competing in the trade with the other colonies under British rule. They simply mostly didn't, by choice. Poor choice, IMHO. In the 1600s and early 1700s, Southern plantation owners were eagerly buying Indian slaves from the interior as well as Africans, the (mostly) voluntarily indentured English, and the (often) involuntarily indentured Scots and Irish. That is, temporary slaves who weren't terribly likely to survive to see their freedom in the 1600s. The Cherokee did pretty well from selling on Indian slaves, though Indians were far more vulnerable to disease and were valued lower than African slaves.Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13296988746956477216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-8002586825092275932018-12-06T19:50:21.203-08:002018-12-06T19:50:21.203-08:00All of northern Virginia near the zone of battle w...All of northern Virginia near the zone of battle was in ruins, and most of the damage done was by the needs of the Army of Northern Virginia. Southern logistics were never great and progressively declined as the war went on. Army requisitions (and some outright looting) became so onerous that a great many farms were abandoned. It was pretty near eaten out by the end of the war. <a href="https://www.amazon.com/General-Lees-Army-Victory-Collapse/dp/1416596976" rel="nofollow">General Lee's Army: From Victory to Collapse</a> covers this pretty well.Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13296988746956477216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-9285693805513526822018-12-06T19:41:48.046-08:002018-12-06T19:41:48.046-08:00One mitigating factor in Grant's defense is th...One mitigating factor in Grant's defense is that he was saddled with some inferior politically-connected generals he couldn't easily shunt aside. Lee ordered a couple of futile, bloody frontal attacks himself that after Fredericksburg, he should've known were forlorn hopes. One was at Gettysburg, but for the life of me, I can't remember the other one right now. Grant had to attack and that was nearly always the bloodier option at the time. Personally, I think Lee is rather overrated and Grant underrated. God knows, Grant would've crushed Lee at Antietam. Whatever else he was, he was a fighter.<br /><br />McClellan was a fantastic staff officer, but a terrible army commander when it came to the crunch. The wargaming world had an award way back when for the worst wargame of the year, the "Little Mac", a small bust of McClellan. :)Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13296988746956477216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-56541658158467149762018-12-03T15:36:37.360-08:002018-12-03T15:36:37.360-08:00Thanks Barry, I'll check that out. Mr. Hanson ...Thanks Barry, I'll check that out. Mr. Hanson is an excellent historian.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-13502313550901542132018-12-03T14:14:30.090-08:002018-12-03T14:14:30.090-08:00I *strongly* recommend "Ripples of Battle&quo...I *strongly* recommend "Ripples of Battle" by Victor Davis Hanson. The book covers three battles, Okinawa (eerie story of how he got his deceased uncle's ring back decades after his uncle was killed in action on Okinawa), Boetia in ancient Greece (would you believe Socrates was a hoplite?), and the Battle of Shiloh and how Grant and Sherman became inextricably linked by that battle. Another bit of info. the author of "Ben Hur", Lew Wallace was in that battle and the book is a result of that battle. Regards, BarryBarryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03979323275440493917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-21457128507820057272018-12-03T04:53:43.890-08:002018-12-03T04:53:43.890-08:00Logistics, logistics, logistics.
Roger that.Logistics, logistics, logistics.<br /><br />Roger that.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-76853026701056252392018-12-02T20:02:55.752-08:002018-12-02T20:02:55.752-08:00Many of the Generals were involved in the 1884-86 ...Many of the Generals were involved in the 1884-86 invasion of Mexico. Grant served as a 2nd Lt in the Quartermaster Corps which, as a whole, did not distinguish itself. <br /><br />Don't know who said it but the quip, "Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics" may have shaped Grant's and other Northern officers embrace of railroads. Well Seasoned Foolhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16670165728759453075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-79526824401785727582018-12-02T06:35:02.325-08:002018-12-02T06:35:02.325-08:00:):)OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-41733424139140932852018-12-02T06:34:51.212-08:002018-12-02T06:34:51.212-08:00:):)OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-29466072779785894962018-12-02T06:34:39.636-08:002018-12-02T06:34:39.636-08:00Spies were everywhere it seems.Spies were everywhere it seems.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-32493166988570729012018-12-02T03:55:54.575-08:002018-12-02T03:55:54.575-08:00Well, it was seven minutes when I started the comm...Well, it was seven minutes when I started the comment. Now it's five/<br /><br />PaulPaul L. Quandthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734944159912671900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-76674523162488674752018-12-02T03:54:25.630-08:002018-12-02T03:54:25.630-08:00Seven more minutes until the new post.
PaulSeven more minutes until the new post.<br /><br />PaulPaul L. Quandthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734944159912671900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-57683310101427620742018-12-01T21:48:22.939-08:002018-12-01T21:48:22.939-08:00I mentioned earlier that my wife and I attended an...I mentioned earlier that my wife and I attended an hour long presentation by Civil War story tellers. One of the figures performed was that of Rose O'Neal Greenhow. From Wiki--<br /><br />"During the previous year, U.S. Army captain Thomas Jordan set up a pro-Southern spy network in Washington City, including Rose O'Neal Greenhow, a prominent socialite with a wide range of contacts.[17] He provided her with a code for messages.[18] After he left to join the Confederate Army, he gave her control of his network but continued to receive reports from her.[17] On July 9 and 16, 1861, Greenhow passed secret messages to Confederate General P.G.T. Beauregard containing critical information regarding military movements for what would be the First Battle of Bull Run, including the plans of Union general McDowell.[18][19]"<br /><br />Link--<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Bull_Run<br /><br />Amazon--<br /><br />https://www.amazon.com/Wild-Rose-True-Story-Civil/dp/0812970454/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1543720821&sr=1-1&keywords=civil+war<br /><br />Here is a very interesting presentation about the Whitworth rifle--<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOQOUGOK0kQRHT447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-9639198467084413532018-12-01T19:50:42.146-08:002018-12-01T19:50:42.146-08:00Yes indeed!Yes indeed!OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.com