tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post4100415353327954691..comments2024-03-29T02:32:07.583-07:00Comments on Chant du Départ: War may be politics by other means, but so is military acquisition.OldAFSargehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-23243453613043148412014-12-20T22:54:12.743-08:002014-12-20T22:54:12.743-08:00If it helps, if we meet I can drop a coin on you. ...If it helps, if we meet I can drop a coin on you. Mine is #79 with the Airborne wings on it with all of the branches of the service and on the other side the "Greater" JCSE emblem and 224th and 290th logos on it. Lots of good memories and some not so good. <br /><br />I lift a toast to a certain Gunny that road my ass and I felt his mission in life was to make me miserable, but he made me a better airman and much better man.tsquaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02737130316088634658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-11587363809765062332014-12-20T09:19:40.157-08:002014-12-20T09:19:40.157-08:00Ohhhhh!
He has a point Tuna, just sayin'.Ohhhhh!<br /><br />He has a point Tuna, just sayin'.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-18542089790215440812014-12-20T09:19:19.094-08:002014-12-20T09:19:19.094-08:00Great quote Virgil.
Did you hear about Buck? Sad ...Great quote Virgil.<br /><br />Did you hear about Buck? Sad news. Go to his place.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-54344027943365234362014-12-20T08:31:36.904-08:002014-12-20T08:31:36.904-08:00There is a quote from an Admiral during the Korean...There is a quote from an Admiral during the Korean War frustrated by the fact that NORK mines kept much of the fleet from operating closer to shore because of our lack of capability in this area even then (from memory): "Here we are, the greatest Navy in the history of the world, and we're being kept from operating in many areas by a nation THAT DOESN'T EVEN <i>HAVE</i> A GODDAMN NAVY!"virgil xenophonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14577165785872035948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-35303997561957548792014-12-20T08:28:45.103-08:002014-12-20T08:28:45.103-08:00" I served as an Exercise Planner and the Rea..." I served as an Exercise Planner and the Readiness Officer for US Central Command in Tampa Florida"<br /><br />I was JCSE and JCSS for 13 years. You need to send me a bottle of 18 year old Balvinni to make up for some of the crap-holes you sent me...tsquaredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02737130316088634658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-37098765827966064222014-12-19T08:59:57.798-08:002014-12-19T08:59:57.798-08:00Alas, I agree. Happy holidays to you and yours als...Alas, I agree. Happy holidays to you and yours also.Captain Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17297301009511642108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-34233212636258466552014-12-19T08:38:47.933-08:002014-12-19T08:38:47.933-08:00Well, you know the Navy, spin first, and make your...Well, you know the Navy, spin first, and make your relief deal with the fall-out. As to the buying of foreign MCM ships, great idea, but you know as well as I that doing so doesn't employ enough Americans. Pieces of MCM equipment? Maybe. The whole ship? Not gonna happen. Merry Christmas to all and to all a good week.Tunahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04930237104692982421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-12492606569151764702014-12-19T05:25:41.989-08:002014-12-19T05:25:41.989-08:00Concur all, I just wish Navy would be upfront abou...Concur all, I just wish Navy would be upfront about it--instead they keep blowing unicorns and rainbows up everyone's skirts. Gosh, wonder where they learned THAT?Captain Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17297301009511642108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-444792361136466222014-12-18T16:06:08.269-08:002014-12-18T16:06:08.269-08:00It's all politics... Not enough $$ in the kitt...It's all politics... Not enough $$ in the kitty, and they are now deferring maintenance to CRUDES too... LCS is a BIG/EXPENSIVE mistake, and the 'concept' of MCM module while good, is not effective due to the limited range. The Avengers are outdated, no question. The Navy would be better off buying something similar to what the Aussies have for MCM units. MCM is hind tit, till somebody gets sunk, THEN you'll get $$ for a year or two. You know that as well as I do.Old NFOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16404197287935017147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-78006535259925517032014-12-18T16:03:27.966-08:002014-12-18T16:03:27.966-08:00It also killed the P-7 (P-3 replacement), at a tim...It also killed the P-7 (P-3 replacement), at a time when we REALLY needed the upgrade... And cost over $1B to rewing old tired P-3s...Old NFOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16404197287935017147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-6684219579429293882014-12-18T15:28:32.540-08:002014-12-18T15:28:32.540-08:00Huh. I was detailed to command one of those (Widge...Huh. I was detailed to command one of those (Widgeon (MSC 209). All set for Japan, but fond out decision had been taken to decomm all the MSC force. I was diverted to command an AOG out of Pearl Harbor--and the rest is history. Funnily enough, the very best RAV I ever had with the AOG was in Sasebo--and we berthed in India Basin.Captain Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17297301009511642108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-31655655748257495512014-12-18T15:22:25.515-08:002014-12-18T15:22:25.515-08:00Well, not if we buy a proven foreign design--and t...Well, not if we buy a proven foreign design--and there are several. I also have considerable confidence that we will be able to leverage remote mine sweeping as a valid tactic. Several of our NATO partners re pretty well along that path.Captain Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17297301009511642108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-76249142633392456592014-12-18T13:20:07.371-08:002014-12-18T13:20:07.371-08:00Thanks!Thanks!Tunahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04930237104692982421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-45901447581934495992014-12-18T12:15:47.080-08:002014-12-18T12:15:47.080-08:00With 32 of the "legacy" LCSs, we may hav...With 32 of the "legacy" LCSs, we may have enough, but we don't know yet how well the MCM MP will work. We haven't tested the MP from LCS-1 yet and there's not a lot of room in that mission bay compared to LCS-2, which would be a better platform for us. As for the other mission areas, I have no idea. Those MPs are still being planned. Tunahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04930237104692982421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-59173651184505205452014-12-18T11:58:13.266-08:002014-12-18T11:58:13.266-08:00I keep asking myself why the process runs acquisit...I keep asking myself why the process runs acquisition. The ultrabug is vital because it's the only; the meat component of the system is 100 percent responsible for the "great job." They deserve at least an A-7. And now big navy is trying to kill all the meat. So who's gonna swap out them modules and prosecute them missions? How can this end well?PrairieAdventurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06466447251827774900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-12698474577897978702014-12-18T11:40:31.365-08:002014-12-18T11:40:31.365-08:00So do we cancel the LCS and leave a hole in our MC...So do we cancel the LCS and leave a hole in our MCM capability until we approve, design, build, and field another minesweeper? What's that, a 10-15 year process? Tunahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04930237104692982421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-35229100587628439942014-12-18T10:59:43.290-08:002014-12-18T10:59:43.290-08:00Some programs do die. The A-12 Avenger...
A gover...Some programs do die. The A-12 Avenger...<br /><br /><em>A government report released in November 1990 documented serious problems with the A-12 development program. In December 1990 Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney told the Navy to justify the program and deliver reasons why it should not be canceled. The response given by the Navy and the contractors failed to persuade the Secretary of Defense, as he canceled the program in the following month, on 7 January 1991, for breach of contract.<br /><br />The government felt the contractors could not complete the program and instructed them to repay most of the $2 billion that had been spent on A-12 development. McDonnell Douglas and General Dynamics disputed this in Federal Claims court; the reasons and causes for the cancellation have been debated and remain an issue of controversy, with suggestions of political expediency and scheming to be behind the action.<br /><br />The manner in which the program was canceled led to years of litigation between the contractors and the Department of Defense over breach of contract. On 1 June 2009, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit ruled that the U.S. Navy was justified in canceling the contract. The ruling also required the two contractors to repay the U.S. government more than US$1.35 billion, plus interest charges of US$1.45 billion. Boeing, which had merged with McDonnell Douglas, and General Dynamics vowed to appeal the ruling. In September 2010, the U.S. Supreme Court said it would hear the two companies' arguments, that the government canceled the project improperly and that the use of a state secrets claim by the U.S. prevented them from mounting an effective defense. In May 2011, the Supreme Court set aside the Appeals Court decision and returned the case to federal circuit court. In January 2014, the case was settled with Boeing and General Dynamics agreeing to pay $200 million each to the U.S. Navy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_A-12_Avenger_II</em><br /><br />My biggest concern (other than cost) is that this thing is NOT a surface combatant. The mission modules aren't there, the crew is too small and I can't see it fulfilling any mission outside of mine warfare. And that's a damned expensive mine warfare platform.<br /><br />You're right, we need something to replace the current ships. IMHO, LCS isn't it. But we are stuck with them. So yeah, make 'em minesweepers (or whatever the term du jour is).<br /><br />Something I forgot to mention above: brilliant post Tuna. Well done.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-40199642816597992462014-12-18T09:39:34.806-08:002014-12-18T09:39:34.806-08:00An interesting take on a complicated problem. For ...An interesting take on a complicated problem. For decades our strategy relied upon our (mainly European) allies to supply the bulk of the mine warfare assets--a skill they practiced and were quite good at. That strategy served us well in a NATO scenario--but in the IO and Pacific, not so much. I agree that we need to develop, maintain and support a mine warfare capability--perhaps crewed mainly with Reserves.. <br /><br />With respect to the Little Crappy Ship--we have invested huge resources in a platform which was advertised as "Transformational" (Beware ANYTHING so described IMO) and which would replace several previous classes of ships, including Frigates, Destroyer Escorts, Patrol Craft and, of course Minesweepers. The problem is that the ship's mission performance is inferior (except for speed--and it sure can't outrun a missile or airplane) to the types it is replacing, and to foreign peers to boot. Furthermore, its crew is insufficient even keep the ship clean and maintained, much less do damage control. It is a death trap in any reasonable battle scenario.<br /><br />It can certainly be a high speed minesweeper. Once.Captain Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17297301009511642108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-58883478320908896182014-12-18T08:33:44.460-08:002014-12-18T08:33:44.460-08:00I remember all of those "cute" little bo...I remember all of those "cute" little boats (coastal minesweepers) sitting in the India Basin at Sasebo back in the early '60s.<br />The were old then.<br />The Mine Warfare boats in those photos don't look much different.<br />The main attraction for duty on those boats back then was it was almost like shore duty.<br />The crew even lived in dorms when in port, which was pretty much all of the time.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />(not necessarily your) Uncle Skiphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02705753220273516841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-22308993816792187802014-12-18T08:23:12.282-08:002014-12-18T08:23:12.282-08:00Other than cost, do you have other concerns? That...Other than cost, do you have other concerns? That alone is unconscionable, but much of that is due to the changing requirements and delays. I don't like that at all, but I know how soon we need SOMETHING to replace the Avengers. How we got this ship is another post for another day, but I'll summarize- no program ever dies. Tunahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04930237104692982421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-48938512470921532452014-12-18T07:55:36.619-08:002014-12-18T07:55:36.619-08:00Politics will always be a part of the acquisition ...Politics will always be a part of the acquisition process. Our tax dollars do the purchasing. Our congress-critters represent us, if we choose them badly, we will always see bad choices in the acquisition process. When we hold our politicians accountable (by voting them out when they do stupid things) then we might get the acquisition process under control. Until then, as they used to say in Korea, "Never happen GI!"<br /><br />From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_combat_ship)<br />During the late 1990s, the U.S. Navy realized its Cold War-era cruisers and destroyers would be vulnerable in shallow coastal waters, where the next naval battlespace was anticipated. Designed for open-ocean warfare, they faced dangers from high-speed boats, missile-firing fast-attack craft, small submarines, sea mines, and land and air-launched anti-ship missiles. The Navy's official solution was the DD-21, a large coastal warship that could absorb hits. Two Navy strategists, retired Captain Wayne Hughes and Vice Admiral Art Cebrowski, refined an opposing Streetfighter concept for a 1,000-ton small, specialized, and heavily-armed vessels costing just $90 million (2001 dollars).<br /><br />From me:<br />I have never liked VADM Cebrowski's ideas and, not to speak ill of the dead, thought his "streetfighter" concept (small expendable, manned ships) was an idea verging on criminal stupidity. A superb way to get our sailors killed.<br /><br />Never fight where the enemy wants you to fight.<br /><br />But the LCS as minesweeper, that's not a bad idea. But the cost of those things is ridiculous. Beyond ridiculous.<br /><br />Not an LCS fan, never will be.<br /><br />FWIW, I hate the F-35 even more. No gun? Didn't we make that mistake already? And paid dearly for it.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-25376765134400674562014-12-18T07:29:14.630-08:002014-12-18T07:29:14.630-08:00It frustrates me as both a defense analyst and as ...It frustrates me as both a defense analyst and as a taxpayer. The more we allow politics to be infused into the acquisition process, the more it seems to cost us.Tunahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04930237104692982421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-6943483389213941102014-12-18T06:12:15.789-08:002014-12-18T06:12:15.789-08:00" 30 years is the average lifespan of a Navy ...<i>" 30 years is the average lifespan of a Navy ship"</i><br /><br />The F-15 that had my name on it was built in 1978. It's still operational. That's dinosaur age for a fighter pulling 9Gs and going the speed of snot. Good Post, Tuna. juvathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09096708575138552532noreply@blogger.com