tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post759509271992620018..comments2024-03-28T16:26:35.679-07:00Comments on Chant du Départ: The End of an Era (Battleships, Part Three)OldAFSargehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-87176217162658783172019-08-27T05:40:17.270-07:002019-08-27T05:40:17.270-07:00Very true.Very true.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-46113007157794695652019-08-26T22:47:03.734-07:002019-08-26T22:47:03.734-07:00The battleship is the more recent version of the a...The battleship is the more recent version of the armored knight -- in the battle of weapons versus armor the weapons always win at a lower cost both in terms of money and manpower -- it's easier to defeat what exists than research and build the next generation of protection. That said, an Iowa-class sitting off the coast of, say, Libya brings a lot of diplomatic persuasiveness but alone she is certain to perish should enough actors agree to attack. There may be a place for a heavily-armored ship in the close-in littoral arena, but again that armor means weight which means draft which means you're stuck off-shore and the enemy has the rivers to himself. Huzzah to the men who sailed them, but as with most things time and technology have passed them by as an effective force in a modern world. While it would be great to see Libya launch an Exocet and the battleship respond with a bucket of paint, such a hypothetical scenario is ever unlikely.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-78372894311459422672019-08-25T01:55:02.552-07:002019-08-25T01:55:02.552-07:00I suppose it was inevitable.I suppose it was inevitable.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-58335960068959984202019-08-24T20:34:25.551-07:002019-08-24T20:34:25.551-07:00Reactivation of any of the Iowa class is impossibl...Reactivation of any of the Iowa class is impossible for NGFS. USN, in its infinite wisdom, scrapped the entire remaining inventory of 16" projectiles, powder charges and spare barrels in 2016.<br /> <br />So, even if you could round up or train crews to operate the steam plants, and turret systems which no one has trained on in nearly 25 years, and find or build the occasional spare parts needed from manufacturers out of business for even longer, you would have a beautiful ship but toothless. I think they have even allowed stocks of 5"/38 ammo to dwindle without replacement, if not scrapped.<br /><br />We are lucky to have witnessed an era with the most beautiful warships ever built.<br />https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23202/do-you-know-what-to-do-with-15000-battleship-shells/<br />John BlackshoeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-21106253348925052672019-08-24T20:11:58.248-07:002019-08-24T20:11:58.248-07:00Giant brass ones.Giant brass ones.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-81642810236247784142019-08-24T20:11:05.460-07:002019-08-24T20:11:05.460-07:00Yes, they have.Yes, they have.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-49745554620881632432019-08-24T20:10:35.063-07:002019-08-24T20:10:35.063-07:00The only currently in commission ship to have sunk...The only currently in commission ship to have sunk an enemy, yes indeed.!OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-70247050773077017512019-08-24T20:08:24.874-07:002019-08-24T20:08:24.874-07:00Times do change. IIRC, the USS Constitution is the...Times do change. IIRC, the USS Constitution is the only commissioned US Navy ship that has sunk and enemy vessel in combat. RHT447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-62364989099699374232019-08-24T17:20:56.281-07:002019-08-24T17:20:56.281-07:00Yes...no account of submarines would be complete w...Yes...no account of submarines would be complete without the reconnaissance of Welwak Harbor by USS Wahoo and Capt. Mush Morton in WW2. Inside the harbor (after five torpedo misses at it)…with a Japanese destroyer boiling toward them with the angle on the bow zero (coming head on).."Fire when she fills four (range) divisions in low power (on the periscope)".."Captain, she already fills eight"..."Fire six, take her deep (90 feet)"...Don McCollorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028324869570493102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-14893081414314014602019-08-24T17:01:32.185-07:002019-08-24T17:01:32.185-07:00...I am remembering the old USS Phoenix (CL46) whe......I am remembering the old USS Phoenix (CL46) when she came to the end of her trail. She had survived Pearl Harbor, but ended her days as the Argentine General Belgano, stalked and sunk by a British nuclear hunter-killer submarine in 1982 in the Falklands War. Times have changed...Don McCollorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028324869570493102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-76835004580792989522019-08-24T16:58:00.841-07:002019-08-24T16:58:00.841-07:00A valuable two cents indeed.
I agree with your as...A valuable two cents indeed.<br /><br />I agree with your assessment Paweł!OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-77297648844325668172019-08-24T15:17:12.059-07:002019-08-24T15:17:12.059-07:00To add my 2 cents: CVNs are much, much more costly...To add my 2 cents: CVNs are much, much more costly than any BB ever.<br />Deathstar syndrome and all that.<br />Especially with SS(K) proliferating around the world.<br />If Swedes could get in for a kill in exercises, and Chinese at least once managed to surface surprise in midst of USN CVBG, all bets are off. Already in WW2 subs scored most of the CV kills: Ark Royal, Courageous, Wasp, Yorktown, Taiho, Shinano... <br />And then there are modern SSNs, while slightly noisier than SS(K), much more maneuvrable and with larger ammo stores, often including VLS for missiles.<br />In a missile-rich environment we will probably see dominance of Aegis-style AA CG/DDG/FFG of various levels of capability, coupled with wide usage of SS/N/K that evade the missile threat almost entirely by virtue of being submerged. (ASROC and SUBROC style torpedo-missile hybrids aside...) Paweł Kasperekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17636249014878876718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-73780329801614655262019-08-24T14:02:04.189-07:002019-08-24T14:02:04.189-07:00Thanks drjim.
Aye, let them rest.Thanks drjim.<br /><br />Aye, let them rest.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-20654461181823957322019-08-24T14:00:58.103-07:002019-08-24T14:00:58.103-07:00Absolutely agree.Absolutely agree.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-57541453027171523722019-08-24T13:59:45.853-07:002019-08-24T13:59:45.853-07:00Operational cost has doomed many a good weapon sys...Operational cost has doomed many a good weapon system.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-29861244698558747832019-08-24T13:49:26.776-07:002019-08-24T13:49:26.776-07:00Another wonderous post, Sarge!
And thanks for you...Another <i>wonderous</i> post, Sarge!<br /><br />And thanks for your help on BB-62, John in Philly. I spent 6 years volunteering on the <i>Iowa</i>, so I understand all the hard work that goes into preserving these ships as museums. As Sarge mentions, it's important to keep these ships preserved as monuments to the men who crewed them, and fought with them. I sure hope they get the <i>Texas</i> all repaired so she's around another 100 years.<br /><br />And many sobering thoughts expressed about future warfare and what The Next Big Thing will be. I still think there's a place for Naval Gunfire Support, but reactivating one or two of the <i>Iowa</i>-class ships for this simply isn't feasible. The <i>Missouri</i> is too important, and the <i>Iowa</i> too broken, which leaves the <i>New Jersey</i> or the <i>Wisconsin</i>, and since parts to bring them back in service are NLA, it's just not going to happen regardless of the number of Facebook and forum posts that claim it's imminent.<br /><br />Let them rest. They've earned it.drjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05647484115197408897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-58482588665822720572019-08-24T13:45:23.145-07:002019-08-24T13:45:23.145-07:00As we say the battleships were amazing feats of en... As we say the battleships were amazing feats of engineering but almost as soon as they were built they were rendered obsolete by emerging technologies. I believe the next wars that are fought will be a horrible mixture of small scale police type actions and cyber war. A 1940's BB would be of as much use as HMS Victory. The next zone of conflict will probably be in a littoral mega city in Asia/Africa. I may well be wrong but I don't think the 3rd Guards Shock Army will roll into the Fulda Gap and neither will the Red Banner Northern Fleet control the Atlantic. <br />As I have mentioned I was a police officer and what worries me is how fragile modern life is. John Blackshoe at 9.13am mentioned the effect of an EMP attack. Consider what would happen if the water/sewage/traffic lights were turned off in a modern city like New York or London. Modern cities are fragile and anarchy is never far away. Just interfering with modern JIT supply chains to shops would cause chaos. <br />RetiredAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-61229046145628658262019-08-24T13:28:06.925-07:002019-08-24T13:28:06.925-07:00Aside from the construction and outfitting costs, ...Aside from the construction and outfitting costs, <i>crewing</i> these ships and keeping them supplied and in good fighting order is horrendously expensive.<br /><br />Lots of times it's the continuing costs of operation that dooms systems like these.<br /><br />The b-58 Hustler is a magnificent airplane, but a B-52 can pretty much do the same job at a fraction of the cost.drjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05647484115197408897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-41043539933856245792019-08-24T12:50:40.697-07:002019-08-24T12:50:40.697-07:00They were amazing machines.They were amazing machines.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-66271563314761558042019-08-24T11:46:58.045-07:002019-08-24T11:46:58.045-07:00The content and comments are most welcome. This se...The content and comments are most welcome. This series is fantastic, I have learned so much. Thank you OAFS.<br />I can remember standing on the deck of the Missouri at Bremerton WA with Jeanie. We were overwhelmed with the sheer size. It is hard for me to grasp the invention, preparation and manufacture of such a piece of machinery, to do such a remarkable job.Dave's Daily Day Dreamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17491764990082380190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-60249332308117485632019-08-24T10:44:52.467-07:002019-08-24T10:44:52.467-07:00You have to wonder, while torpedo blisters help so...You have to wonder, while torpedo blisters help some, I would think that keeping the warhead at arm's length (so to speak) is a good thing. I think I need to read more on that topic.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-50724791194796529852019-08-24T09:33:16.843-07:002019-08-24T09:33:16.843-07:00Yep, mentioned torpedo netting on juvat's worl...Yep, mentioned torpedo netting on juvat's world tour of museums, which started this whole mess. I still wonder if the US had torpedo netting at Pearl, how effective it would have been.Beanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15293778848879361153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-20604037315743423412019-08-24T09:27:26.079-07:002019-08-24T09:27:26.079-07:00Thank you, Sir!
Another sobering last paragraph t...Thank you, Sir!<br /><br />Another sobering last paragraph to a comment. That is the scariest thing, the chaos would be unbelievable.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-50823519685184102192019-08-24T09:25:14.608-07:002019-08-24T09:25:14.608-07:00They should remain as monuments to the men who sai...They should remain as monuments to the men who sailed in them and to the fallen of our many wars to keep freedom's flame alight.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-77566853903191448842019-08-24T09:13:29.610-07:002019-08-24T09:13:29.610-07:00Superbly well done!
Learn from the lessons of the...Superbly well done!<br /><br />Learn from the lessons of the past. Carriers are today's equivalent of battleships.<br />The HMS Barham video is most sobering. As sarge noted those were WW2 torpedoes from WW2 subs, both far less capable than today's versions. Add in the reality that our CVs no longer have much of a screen to protect them or sponge up some of the stuff thrown their way, and the life expectancy of a CV in wartime is too depressing to think about. Add in the hysterics which will occur when a NUKE CV disintegrates a la Barham, and the entire species will be recalled and the surrender deal inked. <br /><br />That leaves the unterseeboot and superfast, superstealthy missiles to rule the world. <br /><br />Unless, of course some non-state actor shows up with some nuke, chem or bio weapon and deploys it in an asymmetrical fashion. Or, maybe the cyber warriors on one side or another will render moot all the cool hardware options. <br /><br />The most scary threat is probably an EMP attack (within the capabilities of a nation or terrorist proxy) which will send most of a continent into circa 1880 lifestyle in a flash. The subsequent inability of today's citizenry to achieve even minimal self sufficiency will result in fratricide and cannibalism in urban areas and medieval subsistence level survival for the fortunate few in the rural areas.<br />John BlackshoeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com