tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post5387024513786718685..comments2024-03-28T02:27:45.688-07:00Comments on Chant du Départ: The Meat GrinderOldAFSargehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-33797050450701671912020-10-19T11:01:12.805-07:002020-10-19T11:01:12.805-07:00Standard practice to shoot and scoot. That being s...Standard practice to shoot and scoot. That being said, the Germans made good use of their own organic mortar units at the company level. I'm just not really sure how good the Germans would be at counter-battery in the woods. But it's something to consider.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-38628943162135237432020-10-19T09:48:17.114-07:002020-10-19T09:48:17.114-07:00You mentioned in the story about the mortars provi...You mentioned in the story about the mortars providing fire for about 30 minutes prior to kicking off the ground offensive. At this point in the war did the Americans have to worry about counter fire and would they have to move periodically to avoid incoming fire from the Germans?Larryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09958739238547801987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-32247637417610914262020-10-19T04:40:24.545-07:002020-10-19T04:40:24.545-07:00Nasty stuff.Nasty stuff.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-30743573830234714672020-10-19T00:17:10.605-07:002020-10-19T00:17:10.605-07:00American smoke, being WP generated, will also infl...American smoke, being WP generated, will also inflict casualties.SCOTTtheBADGERhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12859188068159799373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-60147538833277833822020-10-18T18:08:07.258-07:002020-10-18T18:08:07.258-07:00WWI was brutal!WWI was brutal!OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-58995138595730815062020-10-18T17:52:24.804-07:002020-10-18T17:52:24.804-07:00(Don McCollor)...[As I remember from] Arthur Guy E...(Don McCollor)...[As I remember from] Arthur Guy Empey's book 'Over The Top" about an American in the WW1 British Army. His General "Pepper" believed that orders were orders and meant to be obeyed. When a unit lost a position, Old Pepper had a talk with the senior (surviving) officer. The officer would come out face red as a brick. By nightfall, what was LEFT of his unit would be back in their old position..Don McCollorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028324869570493102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-11864216348176563412020-10-18T16:49:52.058-07:002020-10-18T16:49:52.058-07:00Not knowing what's in front of you leads to tr...Not knowing what's in front of you leads to tragedy.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-56914093766475749332020-10-18T14:53:36.554-07:002020-10-18T14:53:36.554-07:00Hey AFSarge;
Hey Diddle straight up the middl...Hey AFSarge;<br /><br /> Hey Diddle straight up the middle went out during the civil war, and the Great war should have buried that theory for all time. There are many tools in the toolbox to help in the assault and Capt Johnson ignored the tactical realities for his perceptions and his company paid the price. Another excellent Post :)MrGarabaldihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05768774166065615995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-70704498573928135272020-10-18T13:06:36.083-07:002020-10-18T13:06:36.083-07:00Haig was a butcher.Haig was a butcher.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-37021994933452883922020-10-18T12:39:05.762-07:002020-10-18T12:39:05.762-07:00What I had mentioned before blogger wiped out my p...What I had mentioned before blogger wiped out my post was that this installment reminded me of what the author of this world war 1 book said about the head of the British expeditionary force, Douglas Haig. <br /><br />“He disparaged not only tanks and planes but even machine guns. A biographer called him a good general “for a man without genius“<br /><br />And one thing that really brought that out was his planning of, I believe, it the Somme.<br /><br />He started with a fearful barrage comprising of tens of thousands of guns. The sound was such that it even was heard a hundred miles away in Britain<br /><br />When it was over the British troops went over the top and right into a murderous hale of machine guns<br /><br />I forget how many tens of thousands were killed on that first day. <br /><br />What Haig didn’t know was that the Germans had a much more fortified trench system than the British. <br /><br /> it’s easy to imagine that which we don’t know to be similar to what we do. <br /><br />But their trench system went far deeper<br /><br />The Germans simply sat out the barrage and then came up when it was over<br /><br />And the author of this book made the point that Haig could have at least stopped the barrage for 30 or 45 minutes, waiting for the Germans to come out, and then starting it again<br /><br />But he had no imagination, just as that captain who led his men straight up the middle into their own machine gun fire<br /><br />And as I am writing this I am thinking of that scene from saving Private Ryan, where the Ranger squad has to take out that German machine gun nest<br /><br />Came at them from all sides. Even then one of them had to die<br />Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05720206407574457665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-88475231609240912472020-10-18T12:29:13.620-07:002020-10-18T12:29:13.620-07:00Good Wellington quote!
Not sure how this will tur...Good Wellington quote!<br /><br />Not sure how this will turn out.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-45035817881041564492020-10-18T12:20:31.365-07:002020-10-18T12:20:31.365-07:00Even if all goes well, there will be casualties. N...Even if all goes well, there will be casualties. No worse calamity than battle won, except for a lost one. (Wellington after Waterloo)<br />And enemy can have some surprises of their own. Veterans of five years of fighting tend to pick up a few dirty tricks along the way...Paweł Kasperekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17636249014878876718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-10060152223313304502020-10-18T10:50:41.296-07:002020-10-18T10:50:41.296-07:00Fighting in that kind of terrain is nasty. Throw i...Fighting in that kind of terrain is nasty. Throw in bad weather and you have a waking nightmare.<br /><br />Thanks Shaun.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-73612173453227316102020-10-18T10:49:30.040-07:002020-10-18T10:49:30.040-07:00The first assault was poorly planned and badly exe...The first assault was poorly planned and badly executed. The company commander figured a quick push up the hill and the "young boys and old men" would all run away. He figured wrong.<br /><br />Josephson knows better.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-40808590843996937252020-10-18T10:47:53.240-07:002020-10-18T10:47:53.240-07:00That's why both types have been around for awh...That's why both types have been around for awhile and will continue to be useful.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-1212110090036093192020-10-18T10:08:03.753-07:002020-10-18T10:08:03.753-07:00Murphy writes about a similar assault is the same ...Murphy writes about a similar assault is the same place(ish) at the same time(ish). The Krauts countered mortars with mortars and one of the supporting machine gunners was hit, shrapnel neatly slicing off his foot. "There go my dancing days," Murphy has him saying.<br /><br />IIRC the uphill attack was indeed a meat grinder and Murph got shot in the backside, a wound he clearly believed saved his life by taking him out of combat for a couple of weeks. Later when he rejoins the company (as an officer now) he finds the men in a state of utter defeat. It's a haunting tale.<br /><br />Thanks for another great installment Sarge. PrairieAdventurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06466447251827774900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-92078487435915434552020-10-18T09:42:18.917-07:002020-10-18T09:42:18.917-07:00Ah, the old officer changup at the last minute. S...Ah, the old officer changup at the last minute. Sure to ensure a smooth assault the next day.<br /><br />And everything we all said was wrong with the first assault, you used. Interesting. Either we're on the same page as you or you're taking notes. Either way it works well. The first assault was ham-handed, and the RTO and officer should have been back farther in the trees to avoid being gunned down first off.<br /><br />Snipers forward... gee, what an unusual concept. Pretty much the American Fighting Way since before the Revolution, push harassing fire first and let the enemy walk into it.<br /><br />Good story.Beanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15293778848879361153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-19282282782464126872020-10-18T09:36:59.226-07:002020-10-18T09:36:59.226-07:00And mortars give you more bang for your buck. A 1...And mortars give you more bang for your buck. A 120mm mortar is as or more powerful than a 155mm in explosiveness. Same with the US 60mm, it packs as good or more bang than a 75mm howitzer, definitely more than a 75mm or 76mm tank gun. <br /><br />That is, if the end-boom is all you're after. <br /><br />There is some advantage, sometimes, to a flatter shooting piece, like if you're trying to shoot HE into a bunker through the gun slit. Mortars don't do that.Beanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15293778848879361153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-80589697183628985322020-10-18T07:58:57.592-07:002020-10-18T07:58:57.592-07:00Paweł - Mortars can reach into places other artill...Paweł - Mortars can reach into places other artillery has trouble with.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-85965704409267866302020-10-18T07:58:27.960-07:002020-10-18T07:58:27.960-07:00Patrick - Snipers can really mess with your morale...Patrick - Snipers can really mess with your morale, hit a few key people and now you have command and control problems. That's the idea, make the Germans pop up to see the assault, expose themselves, after the HE barrage ceases.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-39378696979856161612020-10-18T07:56:48.461-07:002020-10-18T07:56:48.461-07:00Roger that.Roger that.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-774580112769265942020-10-18T07:56:32.908-07:002020-10-18T07:56:32.908-07:00Patrick - I think the Captain wants to give his me...Patrick - I think the Captain wants to give his men the opportunity to get as close to the defenders as possible. Able Company suffered so badly because the Germans could see them coming. The idea here is HE to disrupt the defense, then smoke to blind them until the last possible moment. If Baker and Charlie Companies weren't fighting uphill in a forest they might forego the smoke, counting on the mortar barrage to keep the defenders' heads down. We shall see.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-66812849980268203962020-10-18T07:52:43.561-07:002020-10-18T07:52:43.561-07:00Paweł - It was very close quarters in the Hürtgenw...Paweł - It was very close quarters in the Hürtgenwald, visibility was reduced by the forest itself and the weather made it worse.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-37375902355994759232020-10-18T07:17:24.340-07:002020-10-18T07:17:24.340-07:00most important advantage of mortar rounds is their...most important advantage of mortar rounds is their trajectory. lob them straight from above into trenches - thats why they have returned to battlefields in ww1<br />Paweł Kasperekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17636249014878876718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-14026380254378146902020-10-18T06:10:24.052-07:002020-10-18T06:10:24.052-07:00Well blogger did it to me again. I’ll redo the com...Well blogger did it to me again. I’ll redo the comment after I get up out of bed. Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05720206407574457665noreply@blogger.com