tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post5650248158988395502..comments2024-03-28T22:08:48.577-07:00Comments on Chant du Départ: War Crimes¹OldAFSargehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-71069406200958915982021-02-16T06:57:25.008-08:002021-02-16T06:57:25.008-08:00The dropping of the atomic bombs did not suddenly ...The dropping of the atomic bombs did not suddenly "awaken" the Japanese Generals to surrender. They were still hell bent on havingthe nation commit mass suicide in the face of the Allied onslaught. They attempted to stop the Emperor from making his speech over the radio. Coffee Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07303759803639176370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-17594865751928383132021-02-16T06:11:36.889-08:002021-02-16T06:11:36.889-08:00Fifty years ago, I had my first adult job, cleanin...Fifty years ago, I had my first adult job, cleaning machines on the second shift in a plastics factory. Many of the workers there were veterans of the Second World War and the Korean War. <br /><br />The My Lai Massacre court-martial was going on. One of the machine operators said that he had been a tanker in the ETO. Some Germans were surrendering to their tank platoon. Their LT dismounted to take the surrender. Either one of the Germans or a German sniper shot the LT (I'm unclear on that detail, as I said, it's been a long time).<br /><br />The tankers shot all of the Germans who were trying to surrender. They then killed every German that they found for the next three weeks.<br /><br />Horrible things happen in war. What makes things into war crimes, in my view, is whether or not the horrible thing is command policy. <br /><br />What also matters is the conduct of one side, as one of the unofficial laws of war is "I'll do unto you like you did unto me." If one side tries to bomb enemy cities into submission to break civilian morale, using twin-engined medium bombers, they have little cause for complaint if the other side then tries the same thing, using four-engined heavy bombers (and a shitload more of them).Comrade Misfithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15404477636451308763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-2010168109963078392021-02-15T03:56:51.475-08:002021-02-15T03:56:51.475-08:00Robert Frezza? Looks interesting.
I would enjoy m...Robert Frezza? Looks interesting.<br /><br />I would enjoy meeting for a beer and conversation. Let me know when you plan on being in my AO.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-52352924574909235452021-02-15T01:38:12.324-08:002021-02-15T01:38:12.324-08:00There are some books I have mentioned to you that ...There are some books I have mentioned to you that you really might enjoy. <br />The series starts with, 'A Small Colonial War'. As you read them you see that the LtCol of the battalion said of her husband, 'he liked Latin tags but he doesn't speak a word of Latin. You and me brother. I had it in the 3rd grade and it did not stick.<br />Thank you.<br /><br />When you like, we should get together for another beer. Sadly it won't be anywhere near the Pub like last time. We do go to Maine every year and one year we did stop overnight at my old stomping grounds in Newport. Give us a few months and I'm sure two people like us could pull together a plan.HMS Defianthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10024721130102173694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-33595532518409276262021-02-14T08:31:20.979-08:002021-02-14T08:31:20.979-08:00Why yes, yes they are!Why yes, yes they are!OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-82320067035646201242021-02-14T08:09:05.438-08:002021-02-14T08:09:05.438-08:00Those are they best days, are they not?Those are they best days, are they not?Toirdhealbheach Beucailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872794169534403463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-86791085455209222672021-02-14T07:58:56.779-08:002021-02-14T07:58:56.779-08:00A few comments crossed the line, so I deleted them...A few comments crossed the line, so I deleted them.<br /><br />I just have to remember the old question, <i>"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?</i>"<br /><br />Yes, I'm in a Latin quoting mood today!OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-38164138155785198122021-02-14T07:45:08.308-08:002021-02-14T07:45:08.308-08:00All sins are forgiven my dear Cap'n.
'Tis...All sins are forgiven my dear Cap'n.<br /><br />'Tis done.<br /><br /><i>Vade et amplius iam noli peccare.</i>OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-30841006483981294892021-02-14T04:43:07.434-08:002021-02-14T04:43:07.434-08:00Beans,
the Japanese high command had stated that t...Beans,<br />the Japanese high command had stated that they were quite willing to lose 50% of the population of the Home Islands to keep the Allies out. They were expecting that possible loss to occur while killing Allied military personnel. After two cities evaporated from single bombs, it dawned on them that they were not going to even get the chance to kill any of their invading enemy to keep them out. There would not be an invasion, just cities going "poof".<br />Check out the book "Hell to Pay", by D M Giangreco. He details all the defenses that we were going to encounter if we invaded. Turned out our intelligence on that subject was woefully incorrect. With our outdated info, the Allies estimated 1M casualties attempting to overrun the Islands. Really good chance THAT invasion would have failed spectacularly.Willhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00722792638246578812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-55764074028198784432021-02-14T00:06:51.841-08:002021-02-14T00:06:51.841-08:00Friend,
I have transgressed mightily and I apolog...Friend,<br /><br />I have transgressed mightily and I apologize. I thought I was commenting on my blog and only realized my idiocy when it didn't work. Truly, in the oldest sense of the words, I beg your pardon.<br /><br />I would be most obliged if you deleted them. It was not my blog and I abused your hospitality. HMS Defianthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10024721130102173694noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-28054995076034632552021-02-13T23:09:19.035-08:002021-02-13T23:09:19.035-08:00Sort of an old school morality tale. Setting of t...Sort of an old school morality tale. Setting of the fictional event was a Nazi occupied Scandinavian country.<br />Some resistance fighters attacked a small, isolated base and killed 50 German soldiers. The area commander rounded up 500 civilians and had them executed. Shortly after that, two fully loaded Nazi troop ship blew up in harbor and a bit over 5,000 Germans froze/drowned.<br />At which point, the resistance leader sent a note - "The game, I believe, is called 10 for 1. Your move." <br />FrankAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-9618904518496634392021-02-13T21:47:29.880-08:002021-02-13T21:47:29.880-08:00(Don McCollor)..."once again the grim members...(Don McCollor)..."once again the grim members of the Marquis gather"....Don McCollorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028324869570493102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-56266989450598937842021-02-13T21:05:26.820-08:002021-02-13T21:05:26.820-08:00In today's world it would be hard for the US t...In today's world it would be hard for the US to spell out war crimes, as a certain, big, social movement has proclaimed that morality doesn't matter. And have also shown that anything they are offended by is a crime. Wonder how they would react if/when they receive the treatment they want to dish out.<br />On a practical level, any act that would make things more difficult should be looked at closely.<br />Soldier rapes farmer's daughter, officers say 'no biggie', so farmer weakens a bridge support, and the next convoy going over it results in a number of casualties. Farmer's neighbors could also decide that the troops need events to make their lives more exciting.<br />Why create unnecessary enemies.<br />FrankAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-61565251637835087632021-02-13T20:55:23.111-08:002021-02-13T20:55:23.111-08:00First of all Sarge, bravo for your bravery to be w...First of all Sarge, bravo for your bravery to be willing to open your blog to such a potentially rancorous discussion (and blessings on you for policing them).<br /><br />Once upon a time, when I had high hopes of being an artist I was part of a duo that performed songs from the Celtic World. One of the things that one notes if one does enough of this kind of music is that the Irish, Scots, and Welsh have quite an array of musical numbers celebrating the loss of most of the struggles to the English. We always noted that the victors got to write the histories, but the losers apparently got to write the music.<br /><br />Beans makes a good point - that our concept of "war crimes" is very much on a historical continuum. It is difficult to apply modern concepts to historical events except as a matter of "and we should never let that happen again" for events that happened, say, prior to the early 20th century. To do so is to make assumptions about cultures and peoples that simply cannot be done. The Sack of Jerusalem - the example given - was awful and it did create a roadblock to attempts to make peace and coexist later in the history of Outremer; this pales in comparison to the depredations of the Mongols under Genghis Khan (which, oddly enough, I do not hear used as an example very often).<br /><br />The 20th Century (and the 21st, I suppose): Different in that supposedly (finally) there are two sides. Except for the nagging problem that in order to win, a side has to sometimes act in a way that looks decidedly like the way the side they are fighting. <br /><br />It is ignored, of course, as part of the path to victory and in the minds of some, justified. But if there is truly an unalterable set of right and wrong principles (Plato would say there are, of course), then wrong is always wrong.<br /><br />I can say that, of course - I write this in front of my warm, comfy fire never having watched my comrades gunned down by a group that then suddenly "surrenders" or fighting against those that have killed my family, my friends, and my nation. <br /><br />The reality perhaps - for better or worse - is that like so many other things, the truth is not only that the victors write history, but the victors have the luxury of deciding after the fact what is history and what is moral. I think we like to believe that it is easily black and white in all cases - like "Putting People On Trains to Camps" or "Rounding People Up To Kill Them" black and white - but I suspect it is not always so.<br /><br />In some ways, like being a medical professional I suppose. You do not know what a life and death decision is until you actually have to make one. Then, of course, it is quite clear.Toirdhealbheach Beucailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14872794169534403463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-2606303918996844682021-02-13T19:25:33.064-08:002021-02-13T19:25:33.064-08:00It wasn't.It wasn't.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-12258586077635097512021-02-13T19:08:09.322-08:002021-02-13T19:08:09.322-08:00(Don McCollor)...worked with a guy by the name of ...(Don McCollor)...worked with a guy by the name of Tibbets. Had a picture of his uncle standing by a B29 on the wall of his office...Don McCollorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028324869570493102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-43141254346762730562021-02-13T18:54:35.636-08:002021-02-13T18:54:35.636-08:00(Don McCollor)...hope it was not me...(Don McCollor)...hope it was not me...Don McCollorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028324869570493102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-91731251279029544962021-02-13T18:01:07.694-08:002021-02-13T18:01:07.694-08:00I had the good fortune to speak to the original Co...I had the good fortune to speak to the original Co-pilot on the Nagasaki strike. (he was preempted by Tibbets but sat in the engineers seat.) He even wrote a book about the experience. He never regretted our dropping of the bomb. My Dad who along with MacArthur took back the Phillipines and would have been wave 3 in the invasion of the main island. The bomb saved his life and the lives of many others on both sides. As a fluke my dad was in the army of occupation and was stationed in Nagasaki. He always said War is Hell. I hope we don't have Hell days coming.Spinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15458754627927552519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-18777929923946755312021-02-13T17:05:57.866-08:002021-02-13T17:05:57.866-08:00No. Lincoln's plans were to wage peace. That ...No. Lincoln's plans were to wage peace. That got derailed.Beanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15293778848879361153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-63322171753792542652021-02-13T16:28:52.967-08:002021-02-13T16:28:52.967-08:00Why yes, I did delete some comments, they were not...Why yes, I did delete some comments, they were not polite.<br /><br />Read the rules below, "Can't be nice, go somewhere else..."<br /><br />That is all.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-40857770964889749862021-02-13T16:20:09.482-08:002021-02-13T16:20:09.482-08:00.(Don McCollor)..the losers do not usually conduct....(Don McCollor)..the losers do not usually conduct war crimes trials...<br /><br />Don McCollorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18028324869570493102noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-61076381999369312302021-02-13T13:41:35.637-08:002021-02-13T13:41:35.637-08:00They get justice when they are killed for their cr...They get justice when they are killed for their crimes, either by firing squad/hanging/guillotine or during acts of war.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-62815612891091843092021-02-13T12:09:30.730-08:002021-02-13T12:09:30.730-08:00Most interesting comments and viewpoints today.
T...Most interesting comments and viewpoints today.<br /><br />Thanks.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-57901307625804280032021-02-13T10:28:01.799-08:002021-02-13T10:28:01.799-08:00I've said for a long time that General Sherman...I've said for a long time that <a href="https://borepatch.blogspot.com/2012/07/americas-first-war-criminal.html" rel="nofollow">General Sherman was America's first war criminal</a>. His <a href="https://www.orlandosentinel.com/opinion/os-ed-confederates-not-the-only-racists-in-us-history-20170816-story.html" rel="nofollow">1890 letter to the New York Times</a> is all the evidence that a court would need.Borepatchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05029434172945099693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-28513569273991078012021-02-13T10:18:27.000-08:002021-02-13T10:18:27.000-08:00I would first state: it is complicated. And at sam...I would first state: it is complicated. And at same time as simple as the guy that stood between amok GIs and villagers at My Lai. <br />Complicated, because sometimes state at war has wildly different attitude towards war crimes depending on the branch, case in point WW2 Germany. On one hand we have horrors of the Holocaust and occupation in the East, on the other side fact that even Polish offical officer war prisoners had relative high survival rate - especially contrasted with fate of those captured by Soviet Russia.<br />Simple because any decent human being will recognize one when he is witness to one. And will act to stop it like Japanese diplomat who kept cranking transit visas to Far East in Lithuania to Jews who desperately tried to flee coming Germans.<br />In the WW2 you could pretty solidly delineate good guys from bad ones, even if Allies had lowered to opposition level some times. Before we condemn Tokyo and Dresden, we must understand Axis has been teaching allies cruelty for years, In Nanking, Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry, Belgrade and countless other places. RAF started war by dropping leaflets and attacking strictly military targets like warships in port. <br />Similarily, look at how suspicious population was treated in different countries.<br />US had interned Japanese -descent citizens but compare that to the German or Soviet camps? No way! Just look at mortality rates.<br />Paweł Kasperekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17636249014878876718noreply@blogger.com