tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post7403880918119815179..comments2024-03-28T12:28:49.901-07:00Comments on Chant du Départ: Seconds from Eternity...OldAFSargehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-75728242763301593332019-06-13T13:19:22.629-07:002019-06-13T13:19:22.629-07:00I thought the story was both interesting and impor...I thought the story was both interesting and important. We sometimes forget that behind the stories of war there were real flesh and blood folks not that different from ourselves, but who stepped up to do a tough job.<br /><br />And many of them didn't make it home.<br /><br />Thanks Paul.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-2220905570472898992019-06-13T12:33:18.844-07:002019-06-13T12:33:18.844-07:00Once again, thank you for making known to me these...Once again, thank you for making known to me these fine Americans.<br /><br />Again, as usual, a good ( if somewhat sad making ) post with comments which expand upon and enhance the post. And, yet again, having arrived late, I can but echo ( LSE ) the comments of those before me.<br /><br />Thanks for the post.<br />Paul L. QuandtPaul L. Quandthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11734944159912671900noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-42716088124179557342019-06-13T06:38:59.086-07:002019-06-13T06:38:59.086-07:00juvat - Absolutely right, chaos would ensue!juvat - Absolutely right, chaos would ensue!OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-61419732274103079792019-06-13T06:38:37.655-07:002019-06-13T06:38:37.655-07:00STxAR - Let 'em protest.
Things are good now ...STxAR - Let 'em protest.<br /><br />Things are good now yes?OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-65405800800422907032019-06-13T06:03:10.666-07:002019-06-13T06:03:10.666-07:00Well....I hope everything is/went all right yester...Well....I hope everything is/went all right yesterday. I mean we can't let real life make a habit of commenting on blog posts, now can we? ;-)juvathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09096708575138552532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-24711525689579765102019-06-13T05:28:21.777-07:002019-06-13T05:28:21.777-07:00I remember the Japanese lodging a protest on Kinne...I remember the Japanese lodging a protest on Kinney's Commerce Destroyers. Those -25's with the 8 fifties and / or a 75mm in the nose. Some had nacelles on the fuselage pointed forward as well. American ingenuity. I wondered about the smoke, too. <br /><br />Whip: I've read the cover off that one.<br /><br />I had an important dr's appt yesterday or I would've commented then. STxARhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04588850178293194825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-50753366109876244682019-06-13T05:10:23.199-07:002019-06-13T05:10:23.199-07:00I read that book as a wee lad.
As for the Tech no...I read that book as a wee lad.<br /><br />As for the Tech note -<br />That was intentional, see Thursday's post. Things have returned to normal. (Ask Skip what that means.)OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-39476693375885750322019-06-12T20:23:46.566-07:002019-06-12T20:23:46.566-07:00Here is a good read.
https://www.amazon.com/Whip-...Here is a good read.<br /><br />https://www.amazon.com/Whip-Martin-CAIDIN/dp/0553028561/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=<br /><br />Tech note for Sarge:<br />Earlier today, the "Comment as:" drop down would only offer Google Account. Seems to be working now.RHT447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-87987271507440199962019-06-12T13:41:12.456-07:002019-06-12T13:41:12.456-07:00Thanks juvat. I think you're right on all coun...Thanks juvat. I think you're right on all counts.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-34436838140347632762019-06-12T11:35:49.583-07:002019-06-12T11:35:49.583-07:00Actually, as I study the pictures a bit more, I...Actually, as I study the pictures a bit more, I'm going to go back to another aircraft's frag pattern. I think the photographer's aircraft is flying a parallel course to Lt Widener, albeit ahead. I think there was another B-25 on a perpendicular course from right to left. Based on the size of the splashes, that Aircraft dropped its bomb which on the first skip hit the water to the port rear of the ship Lt Widener was strafing and the second skip was just aft of its target. It then hit that ship and exploded, just as Lt Widener entered the frag pattern. I think that Aircraft (if I were flying it) would be just out the top of the photo's and could possibly be the B-25 in the photo named #3. That would be it's likely position if it made a climbing right turn to exit, however, blowing up the picture (fits the theme of the post) makes it look like it's in a left hand turn. Get's a bit grainy at that point, so difficult to be sure. Having done a bit of strafing in my day, I think Lt Widener may not have even seen the aircraft passing in front of him as he would have been concentrating on aiming at his target, the co-pilot would have been watching altitude and the gunner would have been looking for bandits behind. Solidly and Sadly, the "Fog of War" almost undoubtedly played a big role.<br /> <br />No worries, Sarge. This thread is much like most debriefs. We've got to get down to all the details in order to learn.juvathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09096708575138552532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-37070390096182062192019-06-12T11:31:08.417-07:002019-06-12T11:31:08.417-07:00Hhmm, I need to look at those pics again. Y'al...Hhmm, I need to look at those pics again. Y'all are spotting some great details!OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-51676228233290399372019-06-12T10:57:08.671-07:002019-06-12T10:57:08.671-07:00More notes:
I think the “aircraft debris” splashe...More notes:<br /><br />I think the “aircraft debris” splashes in photo 3 are, in fact, bomb impacts, probably from the destroyed airplane. Photo 1 shows similar impact splashes that in Photo 2 have quite dramatically gone “blooey.” Seems like the bombs are probably on a couple-second delay. (Wisely)<br /><br />The exploding ship and the spray (lower right) in Photo 1 (that bomb explodes in photo 2) seem to follow in a straight line with the photographing aircraft. If you look at the sequence, it seems like the photographer is moving directly away from that vessel. I’m fairly certain that the photographer is riding in the “offending” aircraft. (War is hell)<br /><br />If you look reeeeeeeeal close at photo 4 (chronologically #1), there’s a small, airborne, egg-shaped object just off the stern of the vessel. I think this is the bomb that’s making a splash in Photo 1.<br /><br />(Bored at work, again. Fascinating series of photos...)a bearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07871505359143633270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-58293403722120010552019-06-12T09:50:41.455-07:002019-06-12T09:50:41.455-07:00I think juvat was spot on, it's a strafing run...I think juvat was spot on, it's a strafing run AND bomb run.<br /><br />Thanks Beans.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-5647445108636428992019-06-12T09:32:21.175-07:002019-06-12T09:32:21.175-07:00From reading in books many moons ago(I, too, was a...From reading in books many moons ago(I, too, was a victim of the Military Book Club) I seem to remember that the bombs were somewhat retarded (not as in smart/not smart, but as in having a chunk of wood attached to the rear to slow them down a tad air-wise, and it broke off when hitting the water, so as to slow the bomb down enough that the dropping plane wouldn't do what we just saw above, but to itself, that is, shooting itself down with it's own bomb or bomb explosion.<br /><br />Care had to be made during a skip-run to also not cut one's wing off on the target's masts and other parts of the superstructure. (Kind of the same effect as barrage balloon cables, except lower.)<br /><br />The timing of the attack, angle, speed, size of bomb, sea state, all were factors into the skipping. And I seem to remember that going flat out straight over them, rather than trying to pull up or curve away, gave the best chance to not blow oneself up.<br /><br />But I am dredging this out of the memory locker, so I may be wildly off target. So to speak.<br /><br />In other words....<br /><br />Good post, thought provoking, horrifying but interesting. Photo analysis has always been a fascination with me (used to do it at the PD back in the day. Convenience store video has to be the worst video ever, got very good at matching eye/nose locations with suspects.)<br />Beanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15293778848879361153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-80447066497582123762019-06-12T09:28:44.965-07:002019-06-12T09:28:44.965-07:00That is a possibility.That is a possibility.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-24544045871147700752019-06-12T09:27:39.065-07:002019-06-12T09:27:39.065-07:00Same here.Same here.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-16058245505239156842019-06-12T09:26:04.073-07:002019-06-12T09:26:04.073-07:00That happened purely accidentally, but yes, that d...That happened purely accidentally, but yes, that does work.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-35071771173740346862019-06-12T09:22:15.571-07:002019-06-12T09:22:15.571-07:00Thanks for the addendum. I, too, was wondering wh...Thanks for the addendum. I, too, was wondering why the plane was trailing smoke from it's fuselage, not it's engines, and was thinking that the plane had suffered previous damage to either the bomb bay or the radio shack area (approximately mid wing on the fuselage) and completely forgot about the multiple guns.Beanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15293778848879361153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-50437101537741387962019-06-12T09:15:44.850-07:002019-06-12T09:15:44.850-07:00Actually, I like, in a horrifying way, the layout....Actually, I like, in a horrifying way, the layout. Here's the breakdown of the action, and here's the before everything wen to hell in a handbasket.Beanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15293778848879361153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-13105858549005762432019-06-12T09:12:14.058-07:002019-06-12T09:12:14.058-07:00I have another take on the photo evidence and it p...I have another take on the photo evidence and it points to a bigger set of stones than what is assumed. The b-25 is smoking on the way down for the bomb run. It's been already damaged. Just note that the bomb run is at most 100 feet. Nobody drops a load at that height because of frag damage from your own ordinance. My guess and that is what all these are is that they knew that they had a crippled ship that was going to crash land anyway so the crew (pilot and bombardier) in the blink of an eye decided to drop what they had prior to auguring in. Stones of great proportion to make that decision as the last full measure of devotion to duty, honor, country. They knew that this was a suicidal decision, they may have survived the landing that awaited them but elected to take the fight to the last second and man. Amy we once again have men such as these.<br /><br />SpinSpinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15458754627927552519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-62593494084196604082019-06-12T09:04:26.868-07:002019-06-12T09:04:26.868-07:00Good point Tom, the .50 is an awesome weapon, more...Good point Tom, the .50 is an awesome weapon, more than one and you'll see (and feel) the effects.<br /><br />Amen on the "everlasting peace." May they be with God.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-74559338904837883982019-06-12T09:03:05.076-07:002019-06-12T09:03:05.076-07:00That sequence of photos will haunt me for a long t...That sequence of photos will haunt me for a long time. Good men, lost doing a tough job, I won't forget them.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-21844253219384588792019-06-12T09:02:17.728-07:002019-06-12T09:02:17.728-07:00WSF - Yup, I concur, juvat's experience does q...WSF - Yup, I concur, juvat's experience does qualify him as an expert.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-65701858625046218582019-06-12T09:01:15.941-07:002019-06-12T09:01:15.941-07:00juvat - I'm sorry if I sounded critical of you...juvat - I'm sorry if I sounded critical of your caption, I was just trying to extend the analysis of what was going on in that photo. Now having read your analysis I think you got closer to the truth. I found that last photo late and didn't really look too closely, though I did notice the smoke trail and rather wondered about that. Not to mention the splashes in the water from what couldn't be bombs.<br /><br />I think your analysis is spot on, the explosion of the target he was strafing and the bomb explosion off his port wing was a double whammy, with wing and tail blown off and the aircraft flipped nearly onto its back, the crew had no chance. The preceding aircraft didn't kill that Japanese vessel, 1Lt Widener and his crew did.<br /><br />There's always a story behind a photo and thanks for pointing out all of the stuff I missed. I learned stuff today, always a good thing.<br /><br />"Exact wrong spot..." Kinda goes with your "I'd rather be lucky than good." 1Lt Widener and his crew were good and unlucky that day. A horrible combination. They killed their target, it killed them in return.<br /><br />Damn!OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7684531976778247960.post-51248896416821165192019-06-12T08:53:28.433-07:002019-06-12T08:53:28.433-07:00From explosion to impact in the water was awfully ...From explosion to impact in the water was awfully fast. Even with easy egress they just wouldn't have had time to get out. Blink of the eye and it was over.OldAFSargehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15935839956936191547noreply@blogger.com