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Praetorium Honoris

Saturday, March 2, 2019

So Your Neighbor Has Tanks, And You Don't...

Indian troops in North Africa parade with a Boys anti-tank rifle and 'Molotov cocktail' petrol bombs, 6 October 1940.
Well, the fellow across the border bought a whole bunch of tanks, armored personnel carriers, self-propelled artillery, and even a bunch of armored cars. He paid for the deluxe tank bundle. You didn't have as much money, you run a small country, what are you going to do?

Those Indian fellows in the opening photo seem prepared to take on some Hun panzers, they've got grenades, Molotov cocktails, and an anti-tank rifle.

What? An anti-tank rifle, is that any good? Sure against smaller tanks, works well on older armored personnel carries and armored cars. Don't even have to get that close. But they are heavy sumbitches and they don't work on the bigger tanks. For that the Molotov cocktails work, but you need to get really, really close. Or have the tank drive by a building you're hiding in.

Ideally, you want something you can kill tanks with. Something like this maybe?



Hhmm, maybe not. How about this Panzerfaust thing I hear the Germans used?



Well, that seems to do the trick. But again, you need to get close, less than 100 yards, closer to fifty for it to work. The guy in the film is pretty close to that Panther by the look of it, and no one is shooting back at him, in combat he'd need guys covering him and hope the guys in the tank don't notice him as well.

To kill an armored vehicle you need to penetrate the armor protecting the crew or engine. Penetrate the crew compartment and bad things will happen, penetrate the engine compartment and you've immobilized the tank. If the crew doesn't panic, and the tank doesn't start to burn, they can still shoot. They're not as useful standing still, but they're still dangerous.

You can get the same immobilization effect by damaging the vehicle's running gear, like the tracks and wheels on a tank (in the video above the Panzerfaust destroyed at least one of the vehicle's road wheels, that tank isn't going anywhere). Mines will work as well, if you've got anti-tank mines embedded in the road or field the tanks have to cross, you will stop them that way. Either by damaging the running gear or, if they hit it right. by killing the crew. The underside of a tank isn't as heavily armored as the rest.

Here's what various rounds do to a tank -



Here's what happened in that video:
  1. The first round seems to be high explosive, a big bang on the armor, probably made the crews' ears ring, but didn't penetrate.
  2. The second round doesn't penetrate, but causes spalling inside the tank. Bits of the armor are knocked off and those will bounce around the inside of the compartment. A very bad day for the crew.
  3. The third round is Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot (APDS). It's essentially a steel dart contained in the tank round, when the projectile is fired the sabot (French for sh0e) falls away and just the dart remains, traveling at very high speed, faster than a normal armor piercing round. When it hits the vehicle, it penetrates and bounces around the inside. Again,  bad day for the guys inside the vehicle.
  4. The fourth round is what is known as a HEAT round, High Explosive Anti Tank. It's meant to burn through the armor spraying the occupants with hot gasses and molten steel. 
While those are modern anti-tank munitions, they had those in WWII as well. At least later in the war. Here's a film clip on American anti-tank weapons and tactics.



I almost feel sorry for the guys in the tanks.



60 comments:

  1. So the Indian troops.... first trooper holds two grenades....six Molotovs present.....LMG.... and a Boys AT rifle which is essentially a .50 caliber BMG.....and a few rifles...... you go to war with what you have, not what's on the drawing board. Tough terrain to dig slit trenches in. Hot during the day and freezing at night, glad I wasn't there. Good choice of visuals Sarge, hadn't seen that first photo ever.

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    1. Lots and lots of flies in North Africa as well. Something which the history books don't always mention.

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    2. Lots and lots of BITING flies. There, I corrected it for you. One of the accounts I read the Tommy (brit soldier) seriously considered wearing long sleeves and long pants because his forever peeling white skin attracted biting flies by the bazillion.

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  2. George Macdonald Fraser was trained to use the PIAT, and did so in combat. Not against tanks, though; he was seconded to a battle-happy officer leading a group of Shan scouts who were going out to ambush a lot of retreating Japanese. Apparently, the PIAT was pretty effective against unarmored barges. Fraser describes rolling onto his back to recock the thing - you wouldn't want to be standing while you're springing an ambush.

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    1. Great story, I'm a big fan of Mr. Fraser's work, and not just the Flashman series. Though I like those very much indeed.

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  3. Defense has to catch up to offense. When it does, offense improves and defense has to play catch up again. Weapons might not have been perfect, but, like the Beretta 950b "Minx" it's better than nothing.

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    1. True indeed. Including that bit about the "Minx." Little tiny pistol is better than no pistol at all.

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    2. Close up and in the face (or ear) it will do the job.

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    3. Adele Mundy ( see David Drake's RCN series ) would shoot for the eyeball because the bone behind it is rather thin.

      Thanks for the post.
      Paul L. Quandt

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    4. Ouch, going for the eyes! Very effective though awfully disconcerting pour moi.

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    5. Well, she ( Adele ) carried a small pocket pistol in her left pocket of whatever she was wearing at the time. As the ceramic pellets ( this takes place around 1500 years from now ) don't have a lot of penetrating power.

      Anyway, I think that you would enjoy the book series, even though science fiction is not your most favored read. ( I know, your ' to be read list ' is longer than Interstate 80, from the East Coast to the West Coast. Mine is nearly as long. )

      Paul

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    6. Some day I might break down and read more science fiction. I have read a lot of Niven and Pournelle, back in the day.

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    7. If you should do so, I suggest Eric Flint's ' 1632 ' as a start. The history part may appeal to you.

      Paul

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    8. That one is actually near the top of my list. Though it is a big list.

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  4. Trained on the 3.5 Rocket Launcher. Great fun but you wanted ear plugs. Those could be used with different warheads such as white phosphorus, useful for temporary terrain denial. We were not happy campers when we turned them in for the one shot wonders. Sure glad it was a 'Cold War'. Using either against the Russians wouldn't have been fun.

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  5. I remember seeing a program about the glider assault on Pegasus Bridge on D-Day. The show said the Tommy's of the Ox and Bucks had a couple of PIATs to deal with the expected Panzers sent to deal with the assault. I don't think they worked very well - one scene showed the round kind of dribbling off the end of the unit when the spring failed. And as the clip you showed said, you had to get "uncomfortably close" to the target tank. It reminded me of some of the spring loaded toy guns we used to play with as kids.

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    1. The PIAT had a decent sized round, but seriously, shooting tanks with a spring fired weapon?

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    2. Well, in it's defense it used common industrial parts to make, it had no backblast so it was safe to fire inside a building or tightly packed room or trench or vehicle or... And with no backblast and rocket trail it had no signature for the now-very pissed off tank crew and accompanying infantry to back track and return fire.

      So, well, like many Brit stop-gap inventions, it worked, it just wasn't the best solution. But in a country already on the edge of losing, it worked well enough.

      Interestingly, the bombs could be dropped from upper stories onto the decks of tanks below and it was a technique that worked okay.

      Interestingly, this was discovered because the bomb would slip out of the launcher if the 'muzzle' was held at too downward of an angle.

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  6. When I went through Small Arms Repair School (1974) our class was informed that we would be the last class trained on the M20 3.5 inch rocket launcher. IIRC, even at that late stage, the rocket propellant had issues in very cold weather. It could ignite out of the tube, then sputter, hit the ground and bounce, re-ignite, sputter, bounce again, and wind up headed just about anywhere.

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    1. Depends a lot on the age of the propellant and how they've been stored. Causes the propellant to burn unevenly.

      Heck, those bazooka rounds were probably at least 20 years old when you were using them.

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    2. Never even saw a live rocket. Just passed an inert training round around the class. Pity. I would really have liked to have fired a Ma Duce and the M40 106mm recoiless. Well OK, I would really like to have fire ALL of them. As it was, we were given "busted" M-16's, and later M-14's to diagnose, pull parts, and repair. Final exam was when they were locked down in a firing port and function tested. Those were the only time we saw live ammo.

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    3. Well, that's no fun.

      Okay, more fun than cutting grass or painting.

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  7. Recoilless? Maybe, but don’t stand behind it.

    At around 6:00, they break out a 105mm and observe the effects of blackblast on an unarmored Land Rover...

    https://youtu.be/pFSIu7CyawI

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    1. thanks for the link - good example of how back blast is nothing to mess with. I remember seeing a video recently of an ISIS person walking behind an RPG just as it was fired - he was DRT for sure, dropped like a sack of rocks.

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    2. a bear - Yeah, all that energy has to go somewhere. Newton's Third Law I'm thinking.

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    3. Tom - Yes, I too have seen videos of a jihadi strolling behind an RPG as it was fired. DRT.

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  8. There are a host of static defenses that work well against all but the heaviest tanks. Pyramidal chunks of concrete, about 3-4' tall, spaced close together, make a hell of a barrier. So do thick tree trunks topped with just iron or steel spikes (like the Italians put on their border between the Germans. Mussolini never quite trusted Hitler.) Tank traps consisting of deep and wide ditches are effective at stopping tanks, too. So are simple things like blowing bridges, blowing mountain passes, rock or snow avalanches, firestorms, dropping trees and such.

    And then there are such things like the 'sticky bomb' from Saving Private Ryan (a sock filled with explosives that is covered in grease or tar) or magnetic mines (usually a shaped-charge explosive with a magnetic ring to lock and hold the mine against the skin of the tank - a modern version of a petard, and just as deadly to it's user.) Satchel charges (a satchel or bag full of explosives) tossed on the rear deck or into the tracks to hopefully knock the engine or treads out.

    And, if you are a gunner in an Italian M13/40 tank, some Tommy shooting you through your optics. Yes, Brit troops were taught to aim rifle and MG fire at the gunner's sight.. And it worked.

    Um... None of the last few methods are really for the person who wants to live a long life.

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    1. Yeah, nobody's going to give that guy a life insurance policy.

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  9. Strong coffee this morning!
    So what is a homeowner to do? The HOA won't do anything about the panzers. Lazy bastards. Probably ought to fight in a area with some constricted avenues of approach. sunken road, buildings, bridge, cliff, etc. No way the average homeowner can deal with this on flat open ground- maneuver is the friend of the tank. ( I am not a military guy, but this seems right- I mean, that's why they have treads, yes? ) We could dig a pit trap and bar it over with something sufficient to support a few tons,enough to support a car, and leave a 55 gallon drum of gas in the hole for cooking purposes.. This is going to be hard to get by the HOA. Maybe a better plan is to roll a 55 gallon drum out a window onto the tank. With a ramp inside and a trip lever, it could be automatic. The gas might need thickener, otherwise it would run all over and contaminate the environment. Now the county EPA would be on our ass. From an ecological point of view, perhaps drowning the tank would be the green solution. This assumes a handy river/bridge combination, of course. Now if a fellow HOA member had a handy little drone, we could rig it with a can of insulating spray foam and a solenoid switch, fly it over the tank and blind it's optical sensors. That stuff is the very devil to get off, wet or set. I wonder how much obstruction it would take in a main gun barrel, to cause a terminal over-pressure? Some of the drone guys could fly one down the crack in a bugs ass. Perhaps all tanks have a special secret spot, where a few ounces of thermite could caress it to death? Over the air intake maybe?

    These are all wild homeowner ideas of course- Never been near a tank, heck, a D-6 Cat freaks me out- However, correctly inspired, the typical American hobbyist would be a formidable foe. A people who strap rocket engines on lawnmowers for casual drag racing events are not to be trifled with. I mean, we had a hard time with people who could barely read and thought a machine shop was a hammer and a file, and a rock.

    Come to think of it, this would be a great reality series. "Tank Killers"-Don't try this at home!" Each week, a new tank would be selected and a group of hobbyists would compete to incapacitate it. Now the HOA, the County, and a host of Federal Agencies would all be on our ass. Nobody wants to have fun anymore. Unless we could get them on board- we could borrow an A-10 for the season finale!

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    1. I love that last bit, might actually get me to watch TV again!

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    2. Well, if your HOA is like any HOAs I've had experience with, the tank would be swarmed by an army of angry cat ladies and lawyers. There is no armor in the world that will hold up against ACLs and Lawyers.

      Plus, if some ACLs and ACLUers get kilt, well... Benefits.

      Of course, in the wrong neighborhood, Mr. Panzer would end up on cinder blocks and stripped for parts before the crew could react or bail. "Bugger, the tank's on cinder blocks."

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    3. "Bugger, the tank's on cinder blocks."

      Sprayed the monitor on that I did.

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    4. See what happens when you are out sightseeing in the 'hood! If you aren't paying attention, ya wind up on blocks!!

      Sarge: You gotta use that line in your story you are writing!

      Angry Cat Ladies!! There is another abbreviation for The Acronym Page!!

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    5. Hahaha.

      ACL has been added, rightly so.

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    6. I remember a story by Vernor Vinge, Real Time, or Marooned in Real Time, at any rate, after The Peace War talking about Mexico invading x America and running up against a handful of ornery farmers who had things on the property that they were paid to store and keep to blow the guts out of tornadoes before they dropped funnel clouds. One of the farmers was extremely ornery and had nukes left over from the days of the USA.

      One of the good reasons to never let any existing firearm in civilian hands be outlawed without fighting back is right there. An armed citizenry can resist any tyranny.

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    7. That was a short story from True Names and Other Dangers. The 'armadillo' in question had a neutron bomb on a booster to get it up to optimum altitude.

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    8. Cap'n - Ornery farmers are the bane of any tyranny. Especially when they're armed.

      I wonder which part of " the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" the judges and politicos don't understand.

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    9. Larry - I guess I need to up the priority of me reading more science fiction.

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    10. "I wonder which part of " the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" the judges and politicos don't understand." The part which means that they can't get away with doing what they want; turning the U.S. into a totalitarian state.

      Paul

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    11. "I wonder which part of " the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" the judges and politicos don't understand."

      I respectfully submit that they understand perfectly. They. Don't. Care. One might as well quote our constitution to Joe Stalin. And that's the scary part. I hold little hope that this is ever resolved peacefully.

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    12. Good point RHT447, they think they know better.

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    13. Paul - I do believe that is what some of them want. I believe they are doomed to failure. Hopefully sooner, rather than later.

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  10. Exceptional video here that includes a description of combat use of the PIAT. Plus some other outstanding stories.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRaU1HqC9kY&t=

    /
    L.J.

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    1. Very nice! I'll have to set aside some time to watch that!

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  11. Poland has costed Germans a lot of tanks in 1939... over 600 knocked out, and 300 other armored vehicles to add insult to injury (armored cars and halftracks). Over 200 tanks were considered total loss.
    The weapons used were, excelelnt by 1939 standard 37mm Bofors AT gun, a small calibre but capable of punching one inch armor AT-rifle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wz._35_anti-tank_rifle
    , and field guns, mostly 75 mm M1897 french ones. Oh- and few tanks fell to our own tanks, as well as bombing raids by few modern bombers of our Air Force...

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    1. German casualties in Poland were very bad, much worse than they let on to the public in Germany. Bad enough that they modified a lot of their doctrine before turning on France.

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    2. Some units even broke and ran. German unit quality was pretty uneven.

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    3. on a side note, a tongue in cheek answer to question is:
      steal some from them!
      here is the real story :
      http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/10/06/polish-panthers/

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    4. Larry - There are units in just about any army at any time in history that will break and run. But the Germans kept that quiet, yes they did.

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    5. The Warsaw Uprising, another good reason to hate the Soviets.

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  12. Apropos of “tank week,” this photo came across my facebooks today:

    https://www.facebook.com/1869224623291019/posts/2264281837118627?sfns=mo

    Lookit alla flavors of tank! They all have one thing in common... they’re broken! :P

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    1. Nice. If you look closely way off in the upper left corner of the photo, there is a Grant (or Lee, they looked similar).

      Cool photo. (Tanks break. A lot.)

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    2. Apparently it’s the only known photograph of a Covenanter in Africa, as well?

      (I said it was an M3, someone else said maybe cast-hull M4? Is that thing that looks like the gun actually the gun?)

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    3. Could be an M4, the turret looks too big to be an M3. What I thought was the gun in a side sponson (M3) might be another tank to the right of what we're looking at.

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  13. In Italy, a Tommy took out two Panthers with a PIAT. Ian Hogg said the VC he received was as much for having fired a PIAT from the hip as for the Panthers.

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    1. Knocking out a tank with a PIAT took enormous cojones.

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