*** This post contains philosophical rambling ***
and may or may not contain actual interesting post material
*** so read at your own peril ***
Jesus died yesterday, some 1990 years ago. But what happened to Him on the day after, being Holy Saturday?
This is a point of semi-contention amongst various scholars and Christian sects, not even getting near "I'll kill you" levels of contention. What happened?
Some think/are taught nothing happened. He waited. Hanging in or around His body, which was sealed in a tomb.
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Others think maybe He was in Purgatory, as he was dead, but not dead-dead, just mostly dead, sort of. But He was dead enough to be dead, so...
Others think that He went down to Hell to do things down there.
Of these, some think He went down to get only the believers who died in the Flood, others think He went down to rescue the souls of believers who died before He saved the living.
I was taught the last. Which if God really is a somewhat benevolent and kindly God, makes some sense, especially since I kind of believe that the three stages of humanity as laid out in the Bibles (Old and New Testaments, that is) being Newborn Child (Eden, and the Choice of Enlightenment or Eternal Child,) Child (the Old Testament God sounding like a parent, "Don't do This!" "Don't do That!" "Quit picking on your Sister/Brother!") and Adult (New Testament, God saying, "You're an adult now, please try to be nice and do good, please? Or at least feel some regret.")
So. No real answers. Not even the overly knowledgeable Roman Catholic Church really knows, as some still just don't know.
Holy Saturday. A day of... waiting. That makes sense. Waiting on the Rising. Waiting on (maybe) the saving of some or all the souls that went to Hell and, under the new rules of enlightened adulthood, should have not been sent down or now qualify for freedom. Waiting.
The religious version of the calm between two storms, or maybe the eye of the whole stormy 80 days of swirling events, being the 40 days of Lent ending in The Rising and the 40 days before the Ascension to Heaven.
But that doesn't make a really impactful and long posting, does it?
Another person died that day. You know who, right? No, not one of the two criminals also crucified (if you believe in the story of Barrabas being let go because the crowd chose to release him instead of Jesus,) but another person. Judas Iscariot. The Traitor (audience: Booo, hisss, booooo....) or, maybe not the traitor (audience: collective "Huh?) And that's the interesting part.
We all know Judas Iscariot turned Jesus in for 30 pieces of silver. Turncoat Disciple, right? But did you know that, supposedly, Judas tried to return the money, realizing the horrible thing he just did? Some scholars say that eventually, eventually, someone took the money but used it to buy a piece of land for a burial grounds for those who nobody else would bury, like the aforementioned other criminal (or criminals) crucified.
But still, Judas knew he betrayed Jesus, and couldn't handle it, so he, some believe, hung himself, or he swelled and grew full of pus until he threw himself off a cliff or hung himself or stabbed himself and burst like a giant zit, (no, really, grooooss) or stabbed himself in front of his wife (didn't know he was married, did you, or maybe not.) All believe he killed himself because of the betrayal. Hung, popped, stabbed, still dead.
Does Judas deserve the hatred thrown his way? Someone had to betray Jesus. Someone had to turn him in to the local authorities. Someone had to. Was Judas preordained to be the Betrayer? If so, then he really isn't guilty of the crime, right? Even if he wasn't born or selected to be the Betrayer, someone had to, which means someone had to throw themselves on their sword, so not really guilty, right?
This. This is quite a quandary. Judas the Goat or Judas the Required Schmuck or Judas the Hand of the Devil?
Again, not even the somewhat 1990 years of the Church, now the Roman Catholic Church, really can decide this.
Some hold him as an agent of the Devil, even unto being a false disciple and agent of Satan from the beginning. If this is true, why did he kill himself in remorse? And wouldn't God or the Son of God figured this out? Even so, someone had to do the betraying (but if Satan or one of his minions had done it, you'd think his PR department would let us know all about it.)
Others go from 'someone had to do it' to 'God gave him the mission, so he's cleared.' Just like this day, a very wishy washy understanding of what Judas' guilt in the role of betrayer was.
One thing everyone pretty much agrees on, though, is that Judas committed a Mortal Sin. Not for betraying his teacher, Jesus, nope. Because Judas committed suicide, which is the Sin of Despair. Mortal Sins, for those who do not now, are the big ones, the 'Go directly to Hell' ones (as long as the last thought through one's mind as one is dying isn't a plea for forgiveness, which, yep, according to the RCC, is potentially a direct save even for a mortal sin.)
Religion is kind of confusing on the rules, no?
Judas, condemned on this Earth for betraying Jesus, Son of God, could have been saved when he died by the Almighty. But the selfish act of the Sin of Despair as enacted by suicide meant his soul went directly to Hell.
Sad story.
But wait, there's more.
Remember, some think that Jesus' Soul went to Hell to free all the believers who went to hell for all of their unforgiven sins, including....(insert 'duh-duh-DUHHHH' sound) Mortal Sins, like the Sin of Despair, of which Judas Iscariot's soul would have been one.
So, did Jesus save Judas Iscariot? Did He forgive JI for the betrayal and for killing himself?
Still, a sad tale of one of the unsung dark heroes or anti-villains of the Bible. Sometimes you just can't do the right thing no matter what. And you get screwed no matter what.
I now believe I have exceeded my deep pondering limit and leave it to you all to ponder for yourself as to what exactly happened some 1990 years ago on Holy Saturday. And whether Judas Iscariot is a scapegoat, a hand of the Devil or a true Betrayer and all-around bad guy.
Indeed, deep ponderings Beans. Now those that are responsible for the posts claiming big $$$'s working from home deserve to go straight Below.
ReplyDeleteBut then there's the old joke. What if Heaven and Hell aren't what people think? What if Hell is having to be good and quiet and under white light for eternity and Heaven is being able to cut loose and get drunk and gamble and other bad past-times?
DeleteHere is where I always get in trouble...I open my mouth and dribble, assides from the story line. The second most important person in the story is Judas. Without his act, the rest of the story is for naught. If no this, then no that. Or why did that mean anything.
ReplyDeleteExactly. Somebody had to shaft Jesus. Peter had The Church to build, all the other Apostles had their jobs, but poor Judas had one and only one thing to do, betray Jesus.
DeleteAnd then because he's really really broken up about it he gets double screwed because he took his own life.
That's not the type of karma that is supposed to be in a Judeo-Christian framework, is it?
Those are all interesting points. I've pondered and scratched my head over a few of them, too. There's a passage in the epistles talking about Jesus in hades. And there is the story of the beggar Lazrus and the rich man. I figure he cleaned out Abraham's bosom, and moved them to heaven. You know, the cool side of the great gulf. "Absent from the body, present with the Lord." I wonder if He explained the way Old Testament faith worked to the unsaved dead? That would be a condemnation for them. "It is appointed for man once to die, then the Judgement." Then at some point just after the Resurrection, He would ascend to Heaven to present His blood. "Don't touch me, I have not yet ascended to my Father." Remember the Ark of the Covenant was just a picture of the one in Heaven. I always wondered if that was when the Legal Requirement was satisfied, and the sins were covered, and believers were Justified.
ReplyDeleteThe New Testament talks about the upardonable sin. I figure that is when you attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil and you resist the work of the Holy Spirit in you to lead you to faith in Jesus. I kinda wonder if Judas was in that camp. I've also heard that Godly sorrow leads to repentance, worldly sorrow leads to death. Sort of a riff on "by their fruit you will know them." Peter's sorrow lead to repentance. Judas' led to "falling headlong he burst asunder in the midst and the bowels gushed out." I figure his rope broke and the fall was long. Was seppuku a thing back then?
What does matter, is that we understand that Jesus was crucified "from the foundation of the world." In other words, God knew all along that we would need a Saviour, and He would "provide the Lamb", just like Abraham prophesied. That when we respond to the leading of the Holy Spirit, faith that is effective is imparted to us to believe in Jesus. And we are "born from above", grafted into the faith family of believers, co-heirs with Jesus. And that is something that boggles my wet ware, no end.
I'm a small c catholic, and I have been a bit Reformation-ist in my explanation, but then, I've been a protestor for as long as I can remember. I've studied to show myself approved for over forty years now, and "by faith" is still my watch word. What I DO know without a doubt: In and of my self, I am not able to do anything of eternal value. "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." When I cooperate with His Spirit's leading, I'm living the Life.
"It takes God in the man, for man to be man, as God intended man to be." And THAT is available, universally, for now. It's a limited time offer, but free for the asking. Do it. Do it now.
And this is where I kind of have a beef with the Catholic Church. Just a little more emphasis on actual religious education and Bible study (and using one of the good Catholic versions and staying far away from any hippy rewrite or King James-ish versions) and some of this would be answered. (Not even gonna talk about the politically socialist bent Mother Church has taken, nope.)
DeleteAs I ponder and read and learn, some of what I was taught becomes confusing. It's like being taught only Newtonian physics exists and then stumbling across Quantum Mechanics. Poof, mind blows, mind reels, mind starts really questioning.
The only thing that God will ask you on that day is “What have you done with my Son, Jesus?”.
DeleteFuzz
Good question.
DeleteDeep stuff, Beans. Things I too have pondered for many a year. My particular sect of Protestantism doesn't address this day at all. I comfort myself with the fact, not belief but fact, that someday, all will be revealed.
ReplyDeleteOh, the priest I learned the most from got a stern backhand from The Vatican for straying outside the lines, and there have been whole orders of priests and monks that have been shut down for thinking and pondering too hard over the years. And others get papal blessings for mental wandering all over, so, well, just like any other organization, mixed messages abound.
DeleteYes, all will be revealed eventually. But that requires dying and going the right direction, and even then, maybe and maybe not.
Deep stuff. Serious mental pondering. But the questions are right there, aren't they?
I think one of the most profound statements about all the mysteries of God and religion is that's why they're mysteries. Some things are just mysterious. The act of faith in itself is mysterious. Removal of the Mysteries from the Catholic Church (and other churches) has directly adversely affected the flock(s) in that because the powers-that-be have made religion 'common-place' and 'safe' then the drawing power of said religion(s) is downgraded. Expecting to see an action adventure with supernatural evens and big stars and instead getting a bad rewrite of "Waiting for Gaudo" using bad local actors. Where's the mysteries, the calamities and big events?
The things I ponder about as the rest of the world sleeps.
Happy boring Holy Saturday. Hopefully boring.
Matthew 27: 52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
ReplyDeleteThose two verses are fodder to ponder on while working out in your head what Christ was about and doing after his sacrifice was “finished” beginning in the 9th hour of Good Friday.
Happy Easter Saturday oldafsarge commenters. And thanks for starting us up with your thoughts Beans.
Franknbean
There are lots of confusing statements like the one above but no real 'statement' of what He actually did once He died. Hints, conflicting stories, and overall the general confusion. Makes me wonder what all the other gospels said before the New Testament was codified at the Council of Nicea in 325.
DeleteAn interesting "meditation" on where He was on Holy Saturday. I am at heart an Anglican with a strong leaning to the catholic of Rome and Constantinople, and agree with you, Beans.
ReplyDeleteI have one nit to pick with a term used. Hell is the English interpretation of the Greek άδης (Hades). In the Early Church, Hades had the interpretation of the place of the dead both good and evil, until the Final Judgement. This is the term that is interpreted as Paradise when Christ addresses the criminal that was crucified with Him. I like the wording used in some versions of the Apostles' Creed and Nicene Creed that "He descended to the place of the dead".
From one website, I got that in the Greek of the New Testament there were three terms used for what was awaiting after death - Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna. The latter two were the bad places.
May all that pass by here have a blessed Easter/Pasche.
It's that messed up translation thing that bothers me.
DeleteIn the original Hebrew (or pre-Hebrew) the phrase translates as "God repopulates the Earth." Repopulates? Who was here before us?
And, of course, the classic Commandment that Western Europe translates as "Thou shalt not kill" in the original Hebrew is "Thou shalt not commit murder." Big difference between 'kill' and 'murder.' One can kill without murdering but can't murder without killing.
And may you and yours also have a blessed Easter/Pasche.
I merely note that we are taught to not blame those who told Pilate to kill Jesus instead of Barabas. So then why blame Judas?
ReplyDeleteExactly. Okay, if he was working with/for Satan, then that's to blame. But someone had to sadly betray him. And Mary Magdelene or one of the other lesser disciples could have done Judas' job, and then they'd be the scapegoat for the betrayal and death.
DeleteAnd then there's the whole "It's Passover" thingy, by which both big sects of Judaism that Jesus sought to tone down, the Pharisees and the Sadducees, believed no real business, like, well, business or law could take place, so who really was there to deny Christ and require His death? One of the lesser sects? Peeved off non-Jews? So many questions and no way short of a time machine with no time cops around to really find out. See the thing about The Mysteries in one of my responses above.
About what happened on Great and Holy Saturday, may I suggest that the Catachtecal Homily of St. John Chrysostom might be helpful: https://www.oca.org/fs/sermons/the-paschal-sermon
ReplyDeleteRe: Judas. His ultimate failure was dispare and suicide. He could have gone, even to the Cross and asked forgiveness. Was he among those freed by Christ's descent into Hell? I don't, and can't, know. Some things are mysteries ever beyond the ken of man.
Yep. Mortal sin of Despair. Which is the unforgivable (by God) part. He was just a man, after all.
DeleteThe older I get the more I contemplate things like this. Why, if someone had to do it, do people still disparage Judas for the betrayal?
As stated by you and I, it's part of The Mysteries. Still something to think about, if only in passing over Easter weekend.
I feel a simpler faith (abet Lutheran). Simply accepting calmly the essentials of the scriptures and trust that God knows what he is doing. The record is sparse (and probably altered and augmented over the course of two millennia) that speculation is pointless. Eventually, I will find out, as will we all.
ReplyDeleteWe will find out, eventually, as you said. But there's so many questions!!!
DeleteWhen a person gets to Heaven, he/she won’t care about these things.
ReplyDeleteWell, poop. That's no fun.
DeletePontius Pilate became a saint. Mt. Pilatus in Switzerland was named for him. I can't speak to the life hereafter. Precious few details are revealed in scriptures. Perhaps the USMC guards the streets. Perhaps the SEALs still make the beaches safe for the USMC. The order of things is unclear.
ReplyDeleteI had forgotten that Pontius became a saint. Huh.
DeleteThere's something kind of sad that there are no known Halls of Soldiers like in Valhalla. I know there are soldiers who never want to soldier again, but there are soldiers who are good soldiers and should be able to soldier on.
Again we butt our heads up against things and stuffs wrapped up as Mysteries.
The Harrowing Of Hell is one of the great mysteries (among many) of the Bible, with possibly referred to in Ephesians 4 and 1 Peter. It is one of those "it kind of makes sense", but at the same time it could be argued there is an overall lack of clarity on what happened to pre-Incarnation believers (mostly Jewish, to be fair). Did they just "Hang Out" in some kind of great Waiting Room until Christ's resurrection? Possibly, although in the light of eternity I do not know how much sense that makes. Did they just go straight to Heaven? The parable of Dives and the Rich Man suggests that something like that might be true (Jesus, telling the parable, does not indicate this is some different place)? The Harrowing has made for some great art though (Dante has a great gash in the walls of Hell when Christ came).
ReplyDeleteJudas. Like everything else, there is both personal responsibility and God's ordering of events. In that sense Judas was "pre-destined" - but if so, then all of us are pre-destined to do the things we have done, good and bad. The concept of free will and God's choice lies far above my ability to puzzle it out. There is the puzzling fact though, that dying in unbelief is (at least in most Christian denominations I am aware of) not a decision that can be undone or forgiven after the fact.
To be fair though, I struggle pretty much with my own salvation, which is likely quite enough for me to focus on.
Regarding free will, what was told to me by a priest is that until Jesus came, there was 'mostly free will' but still some 'pre-destination' but breaking the adult barrier and total free will didn't happen until, well, Jesus died for our sins and was reborn. I've had some weird education in comparison to others I have talked with.
DeleteAnd total Free Will still allows nudging and prodding and even an Angel standing with a flaming sword going "What? You didn't get the message? A certain Someone wants you to go THERE and RIGHT NOW!" That's allowed, and you can ignore it, but...
Jesus said to the thief, "Today you'll be with me in Paradise".
ReplyDeleteWhere is Paradise?
Paradise was the other name for Abraham's Bosom, the holding tank for the souls waiting for the Messiah after their death (See Lazarus and the Rich Man). Jesus descended there to preach to those in captivity (Convince them he was the Messiah) and to take captivity captive.
Judas may have been one of those who re-considered.
One hopes regarding Judas. But he did commit a mortal sin. Still, the weight of the betrayal factors into him killing himself, so.. And Jesus' coming broke the "you must obey 100% or else" rule and installed the "you're an adult, try to get along and follow these suggestions, okay?" rules.
DeleteLots of low key discussion as to what Jesus did on his, well, day off, so to speak.
If you want my take on Good Friday: http://ed-bonderenka.blogspot.com/2022/04/whats-so-good-about-good-friday.html
ReplyDeleteThat's a very good post on Good Friday. Yep, not a lot of good at the time for Him. Lots of good for Him and for us afterwards.
DeleteCannot imagine being there that horrid day. Can't imagine what it was like on Holy Saturday while terror and innuendo abounded.
But I am glad that those horrid personal days happened for the benefit of all of us.
God may have known from the moment Judas was created that he would betray his son, but he did have the free will to do it. I expect that if not Judas, the Jews would have handed him over either way.
ReplyDeleteSome might say that he was predestined since Jesus said one of his 12 would betray him, but I think Jesus just knew it would happen, that Judas would choose to do it.
DeleteStill, pretty much right after he betrayed Jesus he regretted it and tried to make some amends. He had a role to do, whether predestined or just set up by circumstances (as the New Testament really isn't a deep introspective tome dealing with everyone's thoughts and emotions all the time.
DeleteIt's these little things that make pondering the great mysteries so much fun, isn't it?
Yes, that is true. I don't think God would "make" Judas betray Jesus, then not give a chance for redemption and prevent the suicide. Seems antithetical to the whole reason Jesus was here in the first place. Think about it- God forcing his hand, which then leads to him to hell? Not the God I know.
DeleteThe betrayal for money would have been in character for Judas if what is recorded in John 12.1 - 12.6 that indicates Judas was dipping into the money box for the poor is correct (of course this was written much later by John when Judas was not held in a good light).
DeleteBeans,
ReplyDeleteI read all the comments again today including the new ones and your replies.
Under the title of the post you wrote:
*** This post contains philosophical rambling ***
The commentary would be accurate to close with a like minded statement…. Yet, I am grateful for the philosophy you provoked. :- )