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Do the services recruit good athletes who may or may not be good officers after graduation?
Sure they do. But they also admit a lot of kids who have the right grades, the right high school extracurricular activities, and the right connections (sigh, that's still a thing) who may turn out to be really crappy officers. If they graduate at all.
The average dropout rate ranges anywhere from 15% to upwards of 30% depending on the year, making the service academies some of the most competitive schools in the country. (Source)
I would bet that most of the brand new second lieutenants and ensigns from the service academies are decent, if not outstanding, officers. The service academies are tough schools to get through and it takes a lot of hard work and perseverance to do so. If they listen to their NCOs after commissioning, they'll go far. (Provided of course, that their NCOs aren't idiots. Hey, it happens.)
Anyhoo, reader/commenter Mark made a disparaging comment about Commies at those service academies. I kinda jumped down his throat over that, which, in hindsight, I kinda feel bad about. He did make a good point, however, I didn't feel that that was the right place for that sort of comment. I mean it was supposed to be a "feel good" story, as noted above.
Which brings me to my point, there seem to be a lot of "negative waves" in the public discourse these days. It's hard to avoid it, harder still to refrain from engaging in such oneself. (I have bitten my tongue so many times I'm surprised it hasn't fallen out of my mouth. Far too often I just blurt out what's on my mind, to which those who know me can attest.)
I get it, I really do. When it seems that the country is run by a pack of self-serving, idiotic morons, it's hard to remain positive. Doesn't matter which side you fall on, the other is going to presume you're an asshole because of your politics. I'll go on record here as saying "I hate politics," full stop. I don't subscribe to the lunatic fringe of either major party. I can be liberal in some things, conservative in others. That's all I'll say about that.
But a note to all and sundry, I get that you might be pissed off about something, but if the post is about something relatively innocuous, leave it out of the comments. (And for those of you who like to go "off-topic," please don't, it's kind of annoying.)
Perhaps I should institute an "Open Thread" post every now and then. Let you all rant and rave about whatever you'd like. That could prove interesting. It's also an easy post, easier than a music post. Going through the comments could be nasty though, I don't know.
In other news ...
As to the Commie at West Point, yes, there was a guy who professed to be a traitor, er, Communist who graduated from West Point. If you have the stomach for it, you can read about him here.
I would venture a guess that he's not the first Commie/Fascist/Nazi¹ to get an appointment to one of the service academies, and then graduate and get commissioned. Probably won't be the last. But, for the most part, the kids who apply to and graduate from the service academies are some of the country's best and brightest. Same goes for most of the universities in the country. The incidence of evil is far smaller than the media would have us believe.
But at the very least, the person who graduates from a service academy knows that their education could call upon them to make the ultimate sacrifice in the service of their country. Wouldn't be the first time, wouldn't be the last. Those who don't grasp that probably shouldn't be there.
Selah.
¹ Kinda the same, kinda not if you dig deep enough. But they're all assholes.
As to going off topic guess I've been guilty of that at least once...er.....twice....dagnabit (can't go wrong quoting a three time Oscar winner). As to that West Point Commie already had enough reading about him back when it happened. Open thread sounds like the InterNets version of the Purge, give warning Sarge.
ReplyDeleteWe all do it, some more than others. I'm pretty sure you're nowhere near the worst offender, heck, not even top ten. 😁
Delete"That Guy" was merely one of the first who ADMITTED it. He probably should be applauded for his honesty.
ReplyDeleteIt's quite possible.
DeleteSarge, one of the first things lost in any civil society on its way to incivility (and perhaps things worse) is the willingness and ability to moderate one's conversation to the topic.. We have all been on the receiving end of this of course - an innocuous conversation about the weekend or a shared event and somebody blurts out "I think is wrong/stupid and anyone that supports them is wrong/stupid". There may be a place for that conversation, just not there at the moment. Many think that Cato the Elder's ending of every speech "In my opinion, Carthage must be destroyed" represented great focus and drive and commitment. I suspect that it got rather tiresome after a while.
ReplyDeleteThe expectations of the service academies are high and yes, I am sure that "recommendations" help - even as they do in the real world of universities (I assure, it goes on in the civilian world as well). Unfortunately, the Academies themselves may the victim of the larger choices and direction of the military as a whole and the resulting perception of them.
It is your blog, so of course they remain your rules, as they do on anyone's blog (that pernicious thing about owner's have rights and all that). I am often forced to remind myself that just because there is a blog entry, I am not required to comment on ever single post (in fact, in many places it is probably not a glorious idea if I do so).
If you are taking votes, I am against the open thread concept. I have seen it on blogs and it is neither pretty nor terribly instructive or informative.
(And thanks for the picture and quote - that may have been Donald Sutherland's greatest role ever).
I am leaning further and further away from the "Open Thread" concept. If people want to vent, let 'em create their own blogs.
DeleteDonald Sutherland was outstanding as Oddball.
I offered anyone who posts off-topic rants on my blog to help them set up their own blog for $9,000 in cash.
DeleteSadly, nobody’s taken me up on it.
Hhmm, if anyone is interested, I'd do it for 5 grand. 🤣
DeletePretty sure I'll get no takers.
What concerns me about the incident is that one of the commisioning requirements is a background check for a secret clearance. While a secret clearance isn’t all that big a deal, being an avowed communist should have been a disqualifier. Seems like somebody dropped the ball., especially in these internet and online presence days.
ReplyDeleteSomebody definitely dropped the ball!
DeleteOr worse was directed too.
DeleteI know, I know such negative, but just because someone’s being negative doesn’t mean they’re wrong!
It still boggles my mind that that POS got into West Point.
DeleteIt still boggles my mind that during the investigation of what happened, several fellow travellers were discovered in the faculty and yet kept their jobs.
DeleteIt was one of the reasons why Trump appointed so many conservatives to the Service Academy oversight committees. Which got gutted almost immediately after #46 took over.
Disturbing.
DeleteHe probably had a Secret when he arrived as a prior enlisted who was subject to nothing but an agency check with law enforcement. They don’t delve into motivations and expressions for a secret clearance. The BI and SBI are where they try, feebly, to rule out enemies of the USA and those are reserved for TS and above.
DeleteQuite probable.
DeleteI look at the academies like a swimming pool. You don't condemn, or drain the pool, because one ignorant mouse is found swimming in the pool. You determine how it happened, plug the hole that allowed it in, and go on.
ReplyDeleteThat is the smart way to do it.
DeleteJust to toss in another point of view: There are those of us who had (and still have) the strongest possible desire to offer our service(s)(and, if necessary, our lives) to/for our Country. There are those of us who, due to physical defects/past medical history/{lack of proper political connections?} could never be accepted into a service academy, yet still find a way to "write a blank check" and become "leaders of men" at the enlisted or the officer level. The academies are not (and should not be considered) the be-all and end-all of military service they have become.
ReplyDeleteAnother note about the academies: all of the media these days finds great joy in destroying "statues". Even the slightest mischief at one of the academies is blown out of proportion.
One must also look at the preparatory education: the number of teachers activly lauding the destruction of G-d, family, and the other precepts upon which our contry are based; I'm only amazed we don't find more communists and anarchists in our academies.
Sadly true, the teaching profession has a lot of bad apples these days.
DeleteMy experience was that if you needed something done and you wanted to be sure that every rule and procedure was followed, you asked an academy grad to do it. If you wanted something done and didn't care about how it was done, you asked an OCS grad to do it.
ReplyDelete(I had no experience with LDOs and not enough with warrant officers to reach a conclusion.)
My only experience was in the Air Force. On the flight line the only useful officers we saw were aircrew, in my squadrons we had a maintenance officer, but generally those were useless.
DeleteOnce I transitioned to the computer business in the Air Force, I don't recall any useful officers save one. He knew his business and he knew when to listen to his NCOs. The Air Force has neither LDOs or warrants so I couldn't address those. Well, except for one, the STO on USS Michael Monsoor was outstanding. So there's at least one good one in the Navy.
I only worked with one Academy type, he was, as you note, very good at rules and procedures.
When indoctrinating newly minted Ensigns aboard ship the CPO's mantra was "Tell me what you want done but not how to do it, Sir". Anytime one of the newbies went afoul of that policy somehow the Captain would counsel the offender a little more forcibly. That was on Frigates.
DeleteOld Guns
Good leaders believe strongly in telling someone what needs to be done, not how to do it. Subordinates get a mission, how they accomplish that is up to them.
DeleteYep, the old "flagpole test" or, for the NYPD, the "riot test".
DeleteMy dad got his practicing engineer license around the tine he graduated from MIT. His first job was two days, supervising the installation of a guard's cupola on top of a new wall. He was introduced to the crew foreman. The foreman asked my dad what the crew should do. My dad asked "have you ever put up one of these cupolas before?" When the foreman said that he had, by dad said: "Well, go put this one up." (Two days' work at $100/day when that was some serious money.)
Smart man your Dad.
Delete(Don McCollor)...Wise leaders also turn a blind eye on ways and means. One WW2 sub burned out a crucial (top secret) radar tube just before it was to set out on patrol. Replacement through channels would take weeks. The Captain offered weekend liberty to anyone who could "find" one. A seaman made friends with a Coke truck driver, rode with him into a high security warehouse area (where an ordinary seaman was not supposed to be). Found the right warehouse and the right tube. Stashed it in with the empty coke bottles and rode the Coke truck back out the gate. No shots fired or questions asked, and they sailed the next morning...
DeleteSometimes it's best not to ask where a critical part came from.
DeleteScrounger First Class!
DeleteHard to avoid these days of dark skies and stormy weather.
ReplyDeleteAnd I am at fault with it too.
Bleh. I'll work at not bloviating all over this place.
Still one of the better WWII movies not based on real life.
A great film!
DeleteIIRC, they filmed it in Yugoslavia and not a few Russian weapons made it into the movie.
DeleteI have that same recollection. A number of war movies were done in Yugoslavia, I'm pretty sure that Cross of Iron was filmed there.
DeleteHeard a line, “Not everybody’s who you think they are.”
ReplyDeleteYet, we insist on labeling even when information is limited.
Some can find contoversary in the strangest places.
They should just leave it alone.
Oops, I should follow my own suggestions.
DeleteSkip #1 - It's a good line.
DeleteSkip #2 - Heh.
DeleteBeen fifty years now. We had one Academy graduate as our company commander. Decent, fair, and effective. When we put a float bridge across the Rhine twice a year, the VIPs would chopper in. I was nearby when the V Corps CG was questioning our CO. The subject was artillery fire. I was impressed by the way our CO calmly answered. He knew what he was talking about. "Yes Sir, direct artillery fire can sink our bridge. Doctrine is we don't build it unless artillery fire is indirect". Tactics way above my pay grade. Historic note. The site where we bridged was where Patton's 3rd Army crossed.
ReplyDeleteCool.
Delete. . . but . . . but artillery fire is always indirect if the tubes aren't in LOS to the target! What a clever CO. He knew his audience, and their ignorance. The CG was of a political bent, more'n likely.
Delete👍
DeleteFunny, I had this very issue with a long-time friend. We would meet for lunch once a week, and I told him a few weeks ago I am tired of hearing politics. It was a long-standing subject that just makes my blood boil every time I hear about it. There's nothing I can do about it other than vote. We haven't spoken for over 2 weeks. Maybe the friendship is over.
ReplyDeleteOh well.
My nephew is a West Point graduate. And he said something years ago that astounded me. It's the first 6 months where they drop like flies. Up to 30%. I think if you make it through the first year you will probably graduate.
In the Army all those years ago you could always spot Academy grads. Their fatigues were impeccably starched. And, of course, the Ring.
I don't know if you can transfer leadership qualities to where the ossifer graduated. The best one I knew was a former Green Beret as a Sgt and (I assume) went to OCS. The worst one I knew was ROTC. Didn't know that many Academy grads (1). He wasn't in my chain of command.
Funny, I had this very issue with a long-time friend. We would meet for lunch once a week, and I told him a few weeks ago I am tired of hearing politics. It was a long-standing subject that just makes my blood boil every time I hear about it. There's nothing I can do about it other than vote. We haven't spoken for over 2 weeks. Maybe the friendship is over.
DeleteSad, indeed. I had a long-time friend that could not shut up about politics. That's pretty much a done friendship.
There was a Navy wardroom custom that three subjects were off-limits: Sex, religion and politics. I think that's a good guideline for civilized conversations.
Comrade Misfit, that is a wise practice for any sort of conversation that is not with people whose views you know (even if they are different) and have certainty they can discuss things without rancor. I find I talk a lot about the weather.
DeleteBill - We had to go to a "no politics" rule when I head up north. The rest of the family is rather liberal compared to me. So it's off-limits as a topic.
DeleteComrade M - That old wardroom rule is pretty smart!
DeleteTB - Weather is a semi-safe topic, unless someone wants to yammer about global warming, the things can get nasty. (DAMHIK)
DeleteI remember that wardroom rule, but it was an oft-broken one, not that we had time for lengthy political discussions. Sex? That was discussed regularly.
DeleteWell, you were in the aviation community. I'm not saying aviators are less refined than ...
DeleteOh wait, I am saying exactly that. 😁
I don't know how true it is, but as I was listening to one of the local radio stations, one fellow called in to rant about the new NYS mask mandate. He said he had done this experiment he had heard about on the internet with a pulse ox, which measures the oxygen saturation in your blood, to see if wearing a mask for a while had any effect on O2 levels. He curled up in his recliner for 2 hours, watching some football game with a mask on (no idea what kind, he didn't say) wearing the pulse ox, and watched his readings drop into the 80's. He then took the mask off, and continued to sit in the chair watching TV for 2 more hours and watched his readings climb back up to 98%. No clue how true it is, and obviously, not completely scientific.
ReplyDeleteHowever, what struck me was the fact that life certainly has seemed to be waaay more tumultuous over the past few years. No one seems to be able to say why everyone is becoming so rude, and rowdy. Is it because we are all oxygen deprived? Crankiness is one sign of a low O2 saturation level...is it because the general population is getting older? The Baby Boomers are hitting the 70's and 80's pretty hard, I am at the end of that line and I am mid-60's...Crankiness is certainly a hallmark of older folks...as is a decrease in patience for "nonsense" whatever the definition of nonsense is. Or as a society are we just less polite then we were 50 years ago??
I don't know. What I do know is new employees to our agency are told, and I was also told this as a new nurse 45 years ago the same as Comrade Misfit--don't ever talk about sex, religion or politics. Especially when standing in someone's living room!!
Maybe instead of an Open Thread that is a b*tch session---how about one that is about gratitude---what are we grateful for?? Make us stop and count our blessings, and focus on the good stuff...might cheer up a few of the cranky-pants types.
I find myself getting crankier, and losing my patience a lot quicker, as I age.
DeleteAnd I was pretty cranky and impatient to begin with!
Me too!! And it is worse on weeks when the brown stuff hits the fan at work if ya know what I mean. And since all of the Covid nonsense has been going on, EVERYONE is on their last nerve...me included many days.
DeleteHowever, I am grateful that I live in NY instead of in KY!! My job may drive me nuts, as well as my trying to get my house organized and completely moved into...but at least I have a house, and stuff to fuss over, and a job to go to every day!! And my grandkiddo, son, and daughter in law as well as my folks are all safe and sound and above ground. Some days the entire Washington DC jazz is just noise I can easily ignore.
Praying for those folks in Kentucky, what a horrible thing.
DeleteYes, I try to remember to be thankful for my blessings. Which are many and not all that deserved!
I will just apologize for it now since I'm sure I'll do it in the future! You know how my political ire gets raised quite easily. That's one of the drawbacks to giving me the keys to this place- I pontificate, and comment at will, sometimes without the filter engaged.
ReplyDeleteBut when you do it it's okay. That's your forte, it's only someone whinging on a happy post that gets my dander up.
DeleteI'll just go with happy whinging then!
Delete@OAFS/ CROSS OF IRON --great flic, wasn't it? "Useful non-rated Officers"? FWIW @ RAF Woodridge we had both a maintenance & a munitions maintenance officer and both were outstanding which was fortunate as we were in effect our own separate AF, as Wing HQ & other two SQs were @ RAF Bentwaters. We had three Admin Officers while I was there: 2 rated Navs; one nonrated female Capt & one temp female enlisted Ssgt. The 2 Navs were terrible; both females great. Also had a GREAT non-rated Capt SQ Intel Officer. At DaNang we had a great male non-rated Capt Admin Officer. PS: @ Woody iirc we were over-staffed by design/AFreg for independent stand-alone Squadrons.
ReplyDeleteThat film was very entertaining. I'm not saying the USAF doesn't have useful non-rated Os, just that I met damned few of 'em.
Delete