Sunday, February 24, 2019

Which Was Better?

The American Jeep (Top) and the German Kübelwagen (Bottom)
Which was the better vehicle?
When I was a kid, one of the neighborhood dads had a Jeep, an old Willys as I recall. Not one of your modern SUVs, nope, this little vehicle looked just like it's WWII daddy and may have actually been one. We never sat around discussing it, we'd rather go riding in it. From time to time Donnie and Pete's Dad (the aforementioned neighborhood dad) would oblige us and take four or five of us (we were pretty small back then) up the old trail into the woods behind our street.

No doubt these days some prog would have a conniption at the thought of this adult driving a bunch of us lads through the woods in a vehicle with: no doors, no top, and (Heaven forbid) no seatbelts! Well, as Donnie and Pete's Dad was most assuredly not an idiot (he may have been a veteran if I recall, most dads were back then) our parents had no problem with us riding a Jeep up the hillside and into the forest. (Well, to be honest there was an old trail up into the woods which we kids called, of course, the "old Jeep trail.")

I always loved bouncing around in that little car, right there in the woods, ducking branches, and all of us hollering like a bunch of, well, kids. Go figure.

When I got older I was a proud Volkswagen owner, back when they were simple, cheap, and you didn't need to be a genius to work on them. With the right manual and just simple tools you could fix just about anything on the old Beetle (known as the der Käfer, auf Deutsch). It was also economical to operate, getting around 25 miles per gallon, back when a gallon of gas was around thirty cents, and was very good in snow, being light and having the engine over the drive wheels. Air cooled she was and I don't ever recall either of the "Bugs" I owned ever overheating.

Later on (1973) Volkswagen offered a vehicle they called the Thing, more properly the Type 181...

Volkswagen Thing
(Source)
Notice the similarity to the Kübelwagen? In fact, from what I understand, Volkswagen originally manufactured the Type 181 for use by the Bundewehr, i.e. the post-war West German Army. Now as the old '68 Beetle was starting to get rather rusty (she wasn't in the best of shape body-wise when I bought her but I got a good deal and she ran like a top) I was in the market for a new vehicle.

Naturally, me being me, I hungered for a Type 181. However, the lady I was dating at the time (way previous to The Missus Herself) let me know that if I was so gauche as to actually buy one of those "Things," as she put it (with dripping sarcasm) then she would not be riding in it. Not being completely stupid, I realized that I wasn't ready to go hunting for a new girlfriend and, in point of fact, I could get a really nice brand new Super Beetle which would probably be more "socially acceptable" to my lady friend.

So I did. Loved my 1974 Super Beetle, my kid brother The Musician took care of it for me  (which meant he drove it and changed the oil when needed) when I was overseas. I drove it from Vermont to Colorado (with a very pregnant wife and a very young Naviguesser on board) for a four day trip which the love of my life could not quite get her head around at the time, Korea being a rather small country in comparison. (This being her second trip to the U.S. and the first time she had left Vermont, she wasn't really sure of the sheer size of this country compared to where she hails from.)

When we were not far from Erie, Pennsylvania, she asked -

"How much longer to Denver?"

"Three days."

"Three hours?"

"No love, three days. We have another fifteen hundred miles to go."

Dead silence, an incredulous look, and a loud sigh later, we came within hailing distance of a motel. I decided to stop for the night, letting the magnitude of our journey sink in with The Missus Herself. She argued that we should have flown, I pointed out the need to purchase a new vehicle when we got to Denver. She was of mixed feelings on the topic.

The old Beetle stayed in Denver when we left, I sold it to one of my airmen. Gave him a good deal on the car and let him pay it off over time. He wondered what would happen with me in Fort Collins and him in Denver should he decide not to pay the balance. I pointed out that that would be a pretty bad idea as Leavenworth was full of people who believed in doing stupid things.

"You're right Sarge, I'd be an idiot not to pay you."

I just smiled.

Anyhoo, none of this is addressing the title of the post. Which was the better vehicle? The Jeep or the Kübelwagen? First here's a bit of background from the Pedia of Wiki (minus all of the claptrap about what Kübelwagen means).

The Jeep
The Willys MB and the Ford GPW, both formally called the U.S. Army "Truck, ​1⁄4 ton, 4×4, Command Reconnaissance", commonly known as Jeep or jeep, and sometimes referred to as G503 are off-road capable, light, military utility vehicles that were manufactured during World War II (from 1941 to 1945) for the Allied forces.

The jeep became the primary light wheeled transport vehicle of the United States Military and its Allies in World War II, as well as the postwar period, with President Eisenhower once calling it, "one of three decisive weapons the U.S. had during WWII." It was also the world's first mass-produced four-wheel drive car, manufactured in six-figure numbers. About 640,000 units were built, constituting a quarter of the total U.S. non-combat motor vehicles produced during the war, and almost two-thirds of the 988,000 light vehicle class produced, together with the Dodge WC series, outnumbering those by almost two to one. Large numbers of jeeps were provided to the U.S.' allies, including Russia at the time – aside from large amounts of 1½- and 2½-ton trucks, some 80,000 jeeps were provided to Russia during WW II — more than Nazi Germany's total war production of their jeep counterparts, the Volkswagens Kübelwagen and Schwimmwagen, combined.
(Source)
The Kübelwagen
The Volkswagen Kübelwagen was a light military vehicle designed by Ferdinand Porsche and built by Volkswagen during World War II for use by the German military (both Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS). Based heavily on the Volkswagen Beetle, it was prototyped as the Type 62, but eventually became known internally as the Type 82. 
...
With its rolling chassis and mechanics built at Stadt des KdF-Wagens (renamed Wolfsburg after 1945), and its body built by US-owned firm Ambi Budd Presswerke in Berlin, the Kübelwagen was for the Germans what the Jeep and GAZ-67 were for the Allies. (Source)
I'm anticipating Beans mentioning the "finickyness" of German designed vehicles as opposed to the robust, simplicity of Detroit's automotive offerings back in the day, but I  call your attention to my note above regarding the reliability and simplicity of operating and maintaining the Beetle, from which the Kübelwagen was derived. But not having had the chance to drive either the Willys or the Kübelwagen themselves, I found a video from some "experts." They did a "drive off" between the two vehicles, let's see what they said, then you can judge for yourselves. (Oh yeah, these chaps are very British.)



Truth be told, I wish I had one of each!



76 comments:

  1. In true Arfcom fashion "get both!". That's the solution Sarge, bloody accents eh?

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    1. Exactly! Both would be just the thing. (Pun intended.)

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  2. I always wanted "The Thing" just for a 'round town' summer car. They would be better than those supped up golf carts.

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    1. That would be awesome. As I recall, you could take the doors off as well!

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  3. It’s not really a fair comparison, one’s a light truck and one’s a passenger car.

    To be fair, you need to compare the Jeep against the true transportation backbone of the Wehrmacht - and it goes “neigggh,” not “vroom-vroom.”

    The jeep is perfect in the way the Sherman is - perfect for American industry and the war effort, so we could flood the zone with cheap, usable, reliable transport.

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    1. X2 - I have to go with the Jeep. I'm not dissing your Kübelwagen, but for a basic combat tool, the Jeep was a far better option. In fact, the SEAL Teams had Jeeps (Not Humvees) up through the First Gulf War. Easier to fix, lighter, etc. Now it's all JSOC money with contractors falling all over themselves to provide the "ultimate" option. But the venerable Jeep was and is excellent.

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    2. And now the Marines have something that fits in their Ospreys and... after spending way too much money and a couple scandals later... it's a jeep. Not a new jeep, but old jeeps refurbished and rebuilt to newer standards, which means not as reliable. Can't remember what the loser vehicle was but it was hands down the better vehicle, faster, able to be upgraded, more reliable, better fuel mileage and the whole nine yards - kinda a combination between those Special Forces dune runners and a sport utility vehicle.

      The winning vehicle is rebuilt right here in Florida. You can smell the pork being burned....

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    3. Ah, due to a wonderful comment below, the Marines are using repurposed M151s. A jeep thingy, not an actual WWII jeep.

      Thanks, Well Seasoned, for jogging the memory!

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    4. a bear - To call the Jeep a light truck is really stretching things. Army may have called it a truck, but it wasn't a truck.

      The prime transportation backbone of the German military in WWII was a pair of leather boots, with hobnails. The Wehrmacht mostly marched to battle, as their grandfathers did. Horses were used to move artillery and pull wagons. Mostly the Wehrmacht moved at the speed of a marching soldier.

      But I wanted to compare like with like, the Jeep and the Kübelwagen were used for similar purposes. FWIW, the Kübelwagen was a much more comfortable ride.

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    5. LL - The old Willys was one of the better vehicles produced for the Army. Even the Brits used them. Didn't know the SEAL teams used them up through the Gulf War, smart move.

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    6. Beans the 1st - Leave to the gubmint to screw up a good thing.

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    7. Beans the 2nd - Have you looked at the WWII Willys and the M151 side by side? Not much to choose from, performance-wise as well.

      A lot of GIs were killed in Willys accidents in WWII, GIs tend to find the limits of a vehicle, then exceed them. But I'd take the WWII version over the later one.

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    8. My dad liked the WWII era jeeps. Hated the new and improved Korean War era ones, said they flipped way too much even compared to the WWII jeeps. And from what I heard from Viet vets, the M-151 sucked compared to the M-38s from Korea.

      Funny how the improvements kept making it work worse.

      And, yes, on the road and flat terrain the Kubelwagon is more comfortable. But on broken ground and when pulling stuff, the Jeep.

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    9. Progress isn't always a good thing.

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    10. All this talk of jeeps and how jeeps are better, by LL and he's looking at a Pinzgauer…

      Of course, if I could afford a Pinz, I'd get one too, so, well, what's my point exactly?

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  4. As a young lad growing up in California's gold rush country, I learned to drive in a WWII surplus jeep. I was motoring around our ranch by myself at 8 years old. Our jeep was more of a faded primer orange color. We had a trailer as well. This eventually worked out well for me. When I was stationed in (the former) West Germany, I was one of maybe three people in our maintenance company who could back a jeep-trailer combo in a straight line.

    During the Reforger exercises, I was assigned as driver for our company XO. He and I were basically go-fer's, running spare parts and errands all over our part of Germany with our jeep and trailer. I got see a lot of cool stuff. Good times.

    USAUR had a policy at that time that officers did not drive, they were driven. So, I drove during the day, the XO drove (some) at night. One night he was driving and I was catching a few Z's curled up in the back seat. The Lt. took a wrong turn in the dark. Realizing his error, he started to execute a three point turn around. In the dark, he could not see that there was a drainage ditch just about the size of a jeep tire right at the edge of the road. We came to an abrupt stop. It's the only time I can recall coming awake in mid air, in transit from the back seat to the floor. I think I mumbled something like "Nice move there, Crash". He growled back "That name will NOT make it back to the company!" (four wheel drive got us out and on our way).

    I have never even sat in a Kübelwagen or a Thing. In the late 70's I saw a Thing in Lafayette, CA (just east and over the hill from Oakland. Prog Cental east). I thought is was very cool, having been painted up in quasi Afrika Korps desert colors, mit der Balkenkreuz and crossed palms on the side. I would pay money to drive that car through their now, just to watch the heads explode.

    Sarge, did the Kübelwagen have the ability to tow a trailer?

    Have always enjoyed this video--

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBtYXFXa5Ig

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    1. I saw a Thing in Afrika Korps colors and the little palm-tree symbol, except the owner had replaced the swastika with a VW emblem. Very subtle, very cool. We were so much more mellow back then.

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    2. RHT447 - Kübelwagen had a trailer.

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    3. Beans - Knew a guy in Colorado, back in my reenacting days, who had a Thing painted up in Luftwaffe colors. His unit portrayed Fallschirmjäger, he even had a pintal mount for an MG-34/MG-42 in the back. It was pretty cool.

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    4. Knew a guy who did reenacting. Used to pull up to his grandma's house in full SS officer with his buddy driving as an enlisted, in a Thing painted all Nazi-ish. Then he'd go bang on his grandma's door and shout, "Rause, Rause, Commen-zie Frau (very jewish name.)" His grandma thought it was somewhat funny, especially since it pissed off all the very lefty people around her.

      She was a camp survivor, had the numbers, never understood why anyone ever voted socialists but said lots of her friends voted Dem because FDR saved them and they wouldn't believe the truth if it bit them.

      She would chide the guy over his choice, but understood why he did it, besides the weird sense of humor shared between them. Back then Nazi stuff was even cheaper than surplus US stuff, as we had sent most of the good stuff to various nations for free by the mid 70's.

      Then the Illinois Nazis became a 'thing' and took all the fun out of it.

      This country really used to be pretty mellow about things, didn't it?

      And, yes, we all laughed because we got the joke. We knew that the actual thing - Real NAZI-ism - was very bad and truly deserved the curb-stomping put on it by us and our allies and supposed allies. This was back in the days of at least 2 locally available local channels having "Hogan's Heroes" on in the afternoon after school, so people had a sense of humor back then.

      The driver? A black dude who loved stuffing his big 70's afro into a Nazi helmet. He chose to be a Nazi because it allowed him to not cut his hair...

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    5. And, yeah, I look at some of the things I did as a kid and laughed about as a kid and, boy, am I glad Facebook and Twitter weren't around back then...

      I even horrify myself by remembering.

      Heh. A kid I knew in 4th grade used to draw Hitler cartoons. Hitler working for the school, Hitler as the local jerk cop, Hitler as the store manager who yelled at us kids, etc. Can you imagine nowadays doing that? You can't even draw pictures of tanks, planes, guns and stuff anymore.

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    6. Oh my, people had a much better sense of humor back then!

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    7. When I did reenacting folks up in the mountains thought we were in the National Guard.

      Odd that, what with the coal scuttle helmets and all...

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  5. I would agree with Bear. I would select a Jeep, as it is a truck, rather than a car. Kubelwagens had nothing to apologize for, they did the jobs they were intended for quite well, and I personally would love a typ 825 beetle 4X4 pickup.

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    1. The army calling it a truck doesn't make it a truck. If you're calling it a truck due to the lack of a smooth ride, I'll give you that.

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    2. They called it a truck because, well, it did truck things. Pulled stuff, was uncomfortable, was 'uncool' looking, expected to be shot at, semi-disposable.

      Cars were for staff duties back home or behind lines where they were not expected to be shot at.

      The Jeep exceeded it's parameters and was used for everything, including 'car-ish' things. You couldn't reliably get a car to do 'truck-ish' things and expect to use the car again.

      Truck, as in Utility Vehicle.

      Thus... well, a truck.

      Can't see using a car of WWII vintage to plow fields, or pull artillery, or do all the utility things that jeeps did.

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    3. I'll accept utility vehicle, just don't call it a truck. That's just me.

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    4. Well, in the world before you had SUVs and SUTs and crossovers and other made up names...

      Ifn it warnt a car, it wer a truck.

      Simpler times, simpler language?

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    5. To me it's just a Jeep. Which is separate from car or truck.

      Maybe it's just me?

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    6. "To me it's just a Jeep. Which is separate from car or truck."

      Well, the U.S. Army officially called it: Truck, 1/4 ton...", so to me it's a truck.

      Paul

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    7. Whatever the Army says, right?

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    8. In this case, yes, I'll go with what the Army says. As this is the USA, you are free to say and believe anything you wish ( no matter how foolish ).

      Paul

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  6. Then we ended up with the M 151 rollover special.

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    1. Yes, the M 151 rolled over, when driven by stupid people. In my time with the Army, I drove a number of M 151s, so I feel that I can write with some authority that if you knew what you were doing, you could drive one quite quickly and not roll over in a curve in the road. When braking, the back wheels of the M 151 tuck in a bit at the part that is on the road ( or wherever one is driving ). However, if one does the braking BEFORE reaching the curve, maintains a steady speed through the first half of the curve and accelerates through the second half of the curve, the 151 handles very nicely. I have done this often on dirt tank trails and paved roads and never had the vehicle even hint that it would roll over.

      As one might guess, I am quite passionate about that truck. I spent many hours driving M 151s " down range " at Camp Roberts, one of the Army's playgrounds in California. Good times.

      Paul L. Quandt

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    2. WSF - See Paul's comment, I agree with him.

      GIs always push the limits, then go beyond.

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    3. Paul - I can't find any performance figures for Jeep (M38 and variants) versus the M151. But I've heard stories about GIs pushing the limits. Hell, Russian grunts have rolled tanks!

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    4. PLQ
      Yes, driven by stupid people. The rear suspension design, changed in the A2, was a swing axle with a shock absorber. The design has an inherent positive chamber. As weight comes off the wheel it moves inward. When the weight comes back suddenly, the vehicle bobbles and stupid drivers overreact. A quick fix is a simple strap to limit the downward motion of the axle. The wheel still lifts but doesn't tuck under. Any number of 1950-60's European cars being raced used limiting straps for the same swing axle design.

      Anyone who comes up with a foolproof way of fixing stupid in soldiers will become very wealthy.

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    5. "Anyone who comes up with a foolproof way of fixing stupid in soldiers will become very wealthy."

      Well, there is a foolproof way of fixing stupid, both in soldiers and/or civilians, but it only eliminates them, it doesn't educate them. And our society tends to frown on that method. However, it is foolproof ( as long as fools are not using the weapons ).

      Paul

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  7. German army did use what we call the thing. As to which is better a no brainer. The jeep of course. Although I don’t know which had a higher top speed for roads. Probably the VW.

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    1. The Kübelwagen and the Thing were different, similar, but different.

      Yes, the Kübelwagen had a higher road speed and a more comfortable ride. It's off road performance wasn't bad, not as good as the Jeep.

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  8. Jeep. Hands down the Jeep. Would have loved to get my hands on one of those being sold afterwar that came in a crate. When am I going to come across the yard/garage sale where some family wants 'That Box' out and will give it to me for free? A man can dream, right?

    As to my comments on late-war German production, a lot of stuff assembled by slave and forced labor, though designed well, wasn't up to snuff. Fuses that didn't fuse correctly, some small off-spec measurements in a critical part that didn't get checked. That sort of thing.

    And there was also the inevitable teething problems of creating something radically new and getting it into production. So a lot of very new stuff had their troubled introductory period right on the front lines. The Panther was one of these, so were the ME163 and the ME262, both could have used a few more months to years to get right but needs of the moment.

    Nazi Germany wasn't the only country to suffer from 'War-itis' as evidenced in our own B-29 that we finally got to stop catching on fire about the time of the Korean conflict. Oops. How many did we lose to known-but-too-urgent-must-get-out-now faults?

    I wanted a thing, as I thought the air-cooled engines and 2 wheel drive were fine for city driving. Plus... I secretly wanted to get an MG-42 replica and...

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    1. They were also running out of the stuff needed to make quality steel. The joys of living in a dictatorship, NOT.

      As for your last, yup, me too.

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    2. The joys of living in a socialist dictatorship under siege by most of the world, NOT. There, I corrected it for you.

      Some dictatorships actually have been quite successful, and usually are too nice and become un-dictatorships by internal peaceful means.

      It's the 'socialist' dictatorships that have to become un-dictatorships by violent means, whether internally or externally applied, that suck. Witness... Venezuela, where the Gubmint is shooting at aid trucks because the Gubmint has promised a rat for every pot...

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    3. Reminds me of the meme floating around now - "You can vote your way into socialism, but you have to shoot your way out!"

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    4. Can't, because the first thing any good socialistic government does is take the guns, "for the children." Always wondered what types of freaks actually want to give so many guns to children...

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  9. For those of you on Netflix that like comedians in cars, Jerry Seinfeld has an episode where he drives the thing

    I think they are pretty cool cars but I certainly wouldn’t want to get hit in one.

    Those of us of a “certain age” remember the ads in the back of comic books promising a crated $50 surplus jeep for only $50. Never did actually know someone who bought one and I think that was sort of a fiction.


    By the way the car I learned to drive on at age 12 was a World War II era jeep. Although it was made by ford after the war-1947? My cousin just had it restored and it has a tailgate which I understand the war jeeps did not have.

    But like the M1 rifle, the jeep is the perfect tool for the war

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    1. Oh, you could get one for $50. Just that the engine was separate! Which is expensive, of course.

      Oh yeah, you're earlier comment, Bundeswehr used a vehicle like the Thing. I misread what you wrote.

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    2. Even earlier than the $50.00 jeep with no engine was the Jeep-in-a-Box. My dad actually knew one guy who bought a crated jeep for the crate, the jeep was just... extra. Kind of the surprise in the box of cereal (remember when those were actually cool, like records or real toys rather than the bleh today?)

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  10. Back when I was a Maintenance Officer in one of our Mobile Units I had a jeep. It was the last one in the entire inventory of Group ONE and was still a line item on the TOA which I pointed out over and over again to the Group staff who kept telling me to send it DRMO. I used to drive it up to Camp Pendleton and Port Hueneme for conferences and the Group absolutely hated me over it. One day I came to work and it was gone and my LPO told me the Group Staff Chief O had it towed away the day before. I filled out the paperwork saying that a piece of my kit, which I signed for, had been stolen. Chief O did quite a lot of that as Desert Shield ramped up and he kept finding that all the things they needed in the desert were available in my CONEX boxes and vehicles. I think I ended that war as badly off for material as the Iraqi Army and most of my s.tuff was left behind in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. By wars end I was down to one light pickup truck, no boats, no outboards, no power tools and no jeep. I did like that jeep and it was reliable as only something designed and built simply can be. One could say the same thing about deuce and halfs and 900 series 5 tons.

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    1. Sigh...

      Don't you hate staff pukes who believe that their role in life is to be a complete pain in the ass? Even going so far as to enforce regulations which only exist in their tiny staff puke minds.

      Loved the deuce-and-a-half, my Dad's generation also called it the 6-By, short for 6 x 6, six wheels, all powered.

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    2. "...six wheels, all powered." Well, ten wheels ( and tires ) usually. It could be driven with only six wheels ( and tires ), but generally the rear four were doubled, thus ten wheels ( and tires ).

      Paul

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    3. I also drove those ( Truck, two and a half ton ) a lot in my time in the Army. We sometimes called them ' twice and a halfs '. I love me a twice and a half.

      Paul

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    4. I helped a buddy of mine move from one town to the next, he was in the Guard, his CO let him use a deuce and a half for the move. It was fun. Like you Paul, I loves me some deuce and a half.

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    5. Yes, I was loose with my terminology but the WW2 version of the 6x6 was officially six wheel drive. Hence my "six wheels, all powered" comment. Peccavi.

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  11. Owned my 68 Bug for 24 years, owned two wranglers from 92 to 18. Loved them all for the many reasons you mention and more. My Mrs. woould not drive the Wrangler, so I now have a smell Honda. I miss the simplicity of the Bug and the Wranglers which were also convertible cool but I must admit I kinda like the conveniences of power stuff and electronics.

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    1. Power windows and such, yes! Air conditioning, yes!

      But the Beetle was a great car.

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    2. So... how bad does the Honda smell?

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    3. Beans: Very badly--it doesn't have any nostrils!
      Yeah, yeah, I know, I'm going now...
      --Tennessee Budd

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    4. Tennessee Budd, drops the mic as he walks off stage.

      Hahaha!

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    5. For many years in the Bay Area I drove my VW bus which was simplicity with a moon roof the size of the sky. I used it to commute between San Diego and Emeryville and would camp out in it in Big Sur. There were no seats in back, just my leather comfy chair and reading lamp. I could sit there with my feet up, reading a book and looking out over a sunset over the Pacific Ocean. Naturally, it all went away when I married.

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    6. Ah, the romance of the VW bus...

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  12. I used to be stationed at a NATO bunker and you would see them all the time.

    The VW was really a remarkable platform

    I guess it was in production for almost 70 years in one form or another.

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    1. It was a good vehicle, the VW company lost their way in the '80s. I had an '83 Jetta, loved that car, reliable, ran well, well built. I bought another in '90, assembled in Mexico, shoddy, no other word for it. Vowed I would never own another VW.

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    2. Ever go to CINCIBERLANT. 16th century fortress, NATO HQ and still had the moat and you had to walk over a tiny pedestrian bridge to get to the office. Europe is a weird place.

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  13. Having worked on dozens of Beetles, I don't think I could call them "finicky" in any way, except maybe for the REQUIREMENT to do proper, timely maintenance on them. I taught several friends with Bugs how to: Change the oil and clean the strainer (NO oil filter on early VW's!), adjust the valves while the oil was draining, and change the points, plugs, cap and rotor once a year, and adjust the clutch and brakes. Following this simple maintenance, two of them ran their Bugs over 100,000 miles with no 'major' problems.

    I've never worked on a Jeep of WWII vintage, but knowing what I do about them, I tend to think of their reliability as "Anvil Like".

    As far as later VW's go, I put nearly 200,000 miles on my 1975 Scirocco, and all it even needed was a valve job and new valve guides (early VW 1500 water-cooled engines had bad guides), and put 85,000 on a Dasher GT I bought used with ~20k on the clock. That one needed a new timing belt after it backfired trying to start on a -15* day and the cam timing jumped a couple of teeth. Otherwise they both "just ran".

    So, 'you pays your money, and takes your chances', along with YMMMV and IANAL!

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  14. Hey AFSarge;

    I drove a M151A2 while I was in the service, and it was great!, I remembered pictures of my Dad as an MP next to his jeep(M151) in Vietnam. My 151 never got stuck except one time when I found a tank trap too big to crawl out of. Normally I could put my 151 in reverse and get out of whatever hole I found. We had to DX them for Hummvees in 1987 and I hated the Humvee, it had no cushion for the driver, and the mirrors were crappier than the M151 and it HAD no personality.

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Just be polite... that's all I ask. (For Buck)