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| Trafalgar (Source) |
The film Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World seemed very accurate the first time I saw it, here's a scene from that film -
The boarding party scene is cut off there at the end, but it was the cannon fire and the damage done by those old black powder, muzzle-loading, smoothbore cannon that I wanted to focus on. Note the splinters flying and the complete lack of things exploding on the target end.
One of my favorite YouTube historians (Dan Snow at the History Hit channel) has this very nice video of the damage those old cannon can do.
Looks like the film did an excellent job.
Here's another piece of Mr. Snow's work, reviewing some movie scenes for accuracy.
I highly recommend that History Hit channel and Mr. Snow's work. Good stuff!
From the Sarge: Anya yet lives, she's weak but she's eating. She sleeps a lot now and doesn't seem to be in any pain. She purrs when I'm with her and still enjoys looking out the window at the world going by, mostly birds, but well, she is a cat. Mama is home tomorrow and I'm looking forward to that. Thanks for all your good wishes and prayers, Anya and I really appreciate it.
Those guys should have put up a couple of dummies behind that wooden wall. Good vids to post Sarge and thanks for the Anya update, prayers are still out for the wee one and your clan.
ReplyDeleteNow that would have really showed the effects of those splinters!
DeleteMaster and Commander is an awesome movie.
ReplyDeletePrayers for the little baby is ongoing. I hope you have a battery-sinewave back up for her breathing support.
Great movie. Last I heard juvat's granddaughter was doing well.
DeleteMaster and Commander; easily a fit in any "All Time Great" movie list. Great on all counts; plot, direction, casting, cinematography and whatever else makes a great flic. In the 1990's, A&E television broadcast an 8-part series of Horatio Hornblower. In addition to similar equal production values, Horatio benefited from a greatly expanded story-line with "Horry" going from midshipman to commander. Either one is worthy of adding to a video library.
ReplyDeleteI need to track down that Hornblower series, caught a few clips of it while doing research.
DeleteThe Wardroom on Vinson showed that series for movie night (clean shirt). It was very good. I don't think I was able to catch all eight nights, at least from what I remember. I may have to find it again.
DeleteThat appears to be either a 9 lb or 12 lb cannon, judging from the ball size. Bad enough but imagine a 32 lb, the standard gun deck cannon of frigates and ships of the line - 3-4 times larger ball, 3-4 times greater energy.
DeleteTuna - Sweet.
DeleteRyszardsh - My thought as well.
Delete32's would be standard for ships of the line, certainly; probably not so much for frigates (though our six frigates like USS Constitution did mount the heavier guns). Still, any of them would be brutal in effect from the splinters.
DeleteBoat Guy
Par example:
DeleteHMS Victory Armament (100 guns) -
Gundeck: 28 × 42 pdrs
Middle gundeck: 28 × 24 pdrs
Upper gundeck: 28 × 12 pdrs
Quarterdeck: 12 × 6 pdrs
Forecastle: 4 × 6 pdrs
The USS Constitution mounted 18 pdrs as its stated armament, though various captains may have uparmed it some.
DeleteCaptains tended to do such things.
DeleteWooden ships and iron men.
ReplyDeleteGood luck with your cat. They become part of the family.
Thanks BP.
DeleteThose were both fantastic videos. Makes me feel good that I have seen the bulk of those movies.
ReplyDeleteMaster And Commander is one of my favorite films: historically accurate, well directed, and perhaps my favorite soundtrack.
I think I need to watch it again, soon.
DeleteAs for soundtrack, that last piece is worth it all!
DeleteNote that Aubrey was directing fire against the rigging; some chains hot would have been in order.
Loved O'Brien's books. Still have them all.
I also have the Hornblower DVD's good but not up to Master and Commander.
Read all of Forrester's books one WestPac. Good stuff.
Boat Guy
I'm an Alexander Kent man myself.
DeleteFor your reading pleasure
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Weaponry/Seller%281691%29_p157.html?fbclid=IwAR1k8vdXXX49Xa32jJpMr8xvTF4_mW7TtzUtyoo4q3u-XQcVyAFef3vTDCc
In part: Necessary Instructions for a Sea-Gunner.
1. The First thing is, that when a Gunner cometh into a new Ship, that he diligently and carefully measure his Guns, to know they are full fortified, be reinfoced or lessened in Metal.
2. Then he must with a Ladle and Spunge, draw and make clean all his Guns within, that there may be no old Powder, Stones, Iron, oe any thing that may do harm.
≠======
At a muzzle loading artillery live shoot we end down range at a break. At about 150 yards a hard cast 2.9" lead ball, roughly 6 pounds, from a replica Ordnance rifle, smooth bore, and using a half pound of Goex FG black powder had gone almost all the way through a 16 inch Valley Oak tree.
Naval gunnery in the age of sail was an art as much as a science. Timing your firing to the roll of the ship. Of course, long range for them would have been 100 yards. They mostly slugged it out at 50 yards or less.
Re-watched Master and Commander Sunday night. Damn but that is a fine film!
Delete"Captain Blood" with Errol Flynn did an excellent job dealing with naval gunfire of the late 1600's. Splinters and all. And an excellent movie overall.
ReplyDeleteToo bad there wasn't a sequel to M&C, dammit. Woulda been nice to continue the story and the action.
And my favorite 'action' scene is when the midshipman, minus a forearm, leads a boarding party. 13yo 'kid' leading a bunch of marines and sailors. Absolutely correct in that. Arrrrrrgh, ye maties! People grew up a lot quicker back then, and their idea of safe spaces and mean language was far different from a lot of kids today. Heck, at most college campuses, a 13yo leading a boarding party would cause mass faintings not seen since the fart-festival at the fainting goat farm, ifn you know what I mean.
Midshipman started young, those who survived could be seen in the flag ranks until old age.
DeleteWe seem to be raising a nation of sissies in these modern times.
Never watched Master and Commander, will have to hunt it down. Did watch the Hornblower series and enjoyed it a lot!!
ReplyDeleteHugs and pats for Anya.
suz
I highly recommend M & C.
DeleteThanks Suz, she's a bit more active today.
I tried posting from my phone and it seems to have not happened. Take 2
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Weaponry/Seller%281691%29_p157.html?fbclid=IwAR1k8vdXXX49Xa32jJpMr8xvTF4_mW7TtzUtyoo4q3u-XQcVyAFef3vTDCc
In part: 1. The First thing is, that when a Gunner cometh into a new Ship, that he diligently and carefully measure his Guns, to know they are full fortified, be reinfoced or lessened in Metal.
2. Then he must with a Ladle and Spunge, draw and make clean all his Guns within, that there may be no old Powder, Stones, Iron, oe any thing that may do harm.
3. That he seach all the Guns within, to see if they are taper Chamber'd, or true bored, or whether they be Crack'd, Flaw'd, or Honey comb'd within; and finding what Ball she shoots, to mark the Weight of the Ball over the Port; that thereby he may see the Mark or Number upon the Carrieage and Case; so that in time of service they may not go wrong.
And that, I noted, was published in 1691. Very little changed from then until the 1830s (or so).
DeleteNot much changed in artillery, until rifled guns. You could push it even later, to the introduction of reliable breachloaders.
DeleteEven today in the field artillery, other than the system of laying and pointing the gun, the basic drill isn't really all that different than the days of black powder artillery - gunner calls off the type of round, loading table prepares it, runner takes it, shows it to the gunner, hands it off to the loader (or loads it himself), it gets rammed home (if applicable), lanyard is hooked up, piece is discharged, do it again.
Faster, much more accurate, usually indirect fire, but basically the drill is the same.
Re: the power of muzzle loading artillery. At a live shoot I was at during a break we went down range. A guy had a reproduction 3" Ordnance Rifle, smoothbore because the rifling would have added something like 8 grand. We found one of his projectiles at about 150 yards - a 2,9" hard lead ball (about 6 pounds) that had gone almost all the way through a 16" Valley Oak. That was with only an 8 oz. charge of Goex Fg black powder. Imagine at 60 yards a 32 pound iron ball over about 3 pounds of powder.
The old quote of Frederick the Great springs to mind.
DeleteI once crewed a James 6 pdr for a summer. Learned much.
One of my favorite books was the autobiography of Jackie Fisher. He was old school gunnery officer but as he started building all heavy gun Dreadnoughts found the old school reluctant to improve fire control to take advantage of big guns able to accurately hit targets out to the horizon. I can’t recall if this is where he wrote, I wish I could bite them.
ReplyDeleteThere is a Harvard Business School case study of resistance to innovation which traces the introduction of accurate continuous fire. Very interesting to read about all the different motives to stonewall the change and it’s eventual introduction. Google Gunfire At Sea.
DeleteFisher was an innovator, met a lot of resistance from the old timers.
DeleteTimbotoo - That must be an interesting read!
DeleteQuite a short read, but very interesting. Recommended.
Delete👍
DeleteI wrote “its” not it’s! Cursed auto-cucumber!
ReplyDeleteThe enemy of commenters (and bloggers) everywhere.
DeleteThere are quite a few people with original and replica muzzle loading cannons who shoot them on a regular basis. Not just the nice demonstrations firing blanks at historic sites, but actual target competition.
ReplyDeleteOne of the largest is the North-South Skirmish Association at the matches at Winchester, VA, where they may have 25 or so cannons firing, and also a lot of mortars. The range is only about 100-200 yards, but still very interesting. NSSA is mainly known for their small arms matches using original (and replica) rifle muskets, various carbines and revolvers. They started in 1950 and are still very active.
An even more impressive cannon competition takes place at the National Guard range at Camp Grayling, Michigan, where the cannons are fired at ranges of 1,000 and 1,200 yards. The targets at 1,000 yard are about 6 feet by 6 feet, with a bullseye the size of a newspaper (18" x 24") Any team that puts 3 shots in that 18" x 24" bullseye takes home a significant cash prize. While few get the 3 hits in the bullseye, they place most of their shots on the 6' x 6' target.
John Morris, who posts as "cannonmn" on various sites had an unbelievable collection of muzzle loading artillery from tiny field guns to all the standard Civil War field guns, and even full size Dahlgren and Columbiad siege and coastal defense guns in the 32 pounder, 64 pounder and 9 inch range. Also quite a few mortars from 24 pound coehors to 10 inch siege types. His collection was auctioned off in 2015(?). If you see any posts anywhere by "cannonmn" they are full of great info.
Search for "Duelling Civil War cannons, Full military loads, 1000 yards, Grayling, MI, 2012" and it will take you to a video of some of the firing at Camp Grayling, and while it does not show the loading process, it does show the accuracy. There are other videos which show the devastating effect of canister rounds from 12 pounders, such as broke up Pickett's charge, if you search around.
John Blackshoe
Sounds like something I need to chase down!
DeleteI don't think I'm alone when I think the whole Aubrey Maturin series is worthy of a big budget Netflix or Amazon prime treatment. I mean, what is there not to like? Strong male and female characters, intrigue, action and everything else.
ReplyDeleteRetired
I'll second that motion, even though it might give some of the modern types the vapors.
DeleteThat's one more reason to do it!
DeleteBG
Concur!
DeleteAh, I can see it now, all girl and diversity crews, modern language, stupid romances and in-fighting, you know, what they did to "Wheels of Time" and "Rings of Power" and just about every other big-name story. Bleh.
DeleteI mean, what I used to call the Disney version - the names are the same but the plot has been changed to protect the innocent or the wallet or something....
DeleteBeans 1 - And it would make no money at all.
DeleteBeans 2 - Indeed.
DeleteHey Old AFSarge;
ReplyDeleteM&C was a really good movie, another good movie was "Damm the Defiant". and The "Horatio Hornblower" mini-series.
Yup.
DeleteA few comments about Nelsonian era dominance of Royal Navy:
ReplyDelete1.training: RN was probably first navy to emphasize reload speed training, whilch led itself to firepower advantage...
2.but it allowed another tenet: agression:
At the beginning of the battle, as the Spanish Fleet emerged from the mist, Jervis listened to the reports from his flag captain reading the signals flown by the British frigate Bonne Citoyenne: Flag Captain: ‘There are 8 sail of the line, Sir John.’ Jervis: ‘Very well sir.’ Flag Captain: ‘There are 20 sail of the line, Sir John.’ Jervis: ‘Very well sir.’ Flag Captain: ‘There are 25 sail of the line…… 27 sail of the line…. Sir John, near double our own.’ Jervis: ‘Enough of that, sir. If there are 50 sail, I will go through them.’
That was mentor of Nelson, John Jervis at Cape St.Vincent.
and Nelson himself:
No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of the enemy.
The rate of fire advantage simply allowed RN to win one on one ore even one on two engagements.
3.Flexibility and independence of command:
In the battle of Copenhagen, Nelson was still second in command, and his detachment closed to bombard city and anchored Danish fleet.
At one moment, CINC of the fleet signalled to withdraw concerned about losses to shore batteries.
Nelson famously put field telescope to his blinded eye and pretended he saw nothing, then continued merciless barrage.
And the CINC? He just smiled and told: Nelson is closer to the action, he knows better.
Trust in underlings and giving them initiative is reminiscent of German Auftragstaktik - and opposite of Soviet-style rigid command systems (which, Russia apparently uses still today, and, knowing communist ways, China probably uses too...)
Ships and sailors belong at sea, the British understood that. The French and Spanish, not so much. Of course when you're under blockade ...
DeleteFWIW, French ship designs were very good. The Brits loved capturing them and putting them back into service against the original owners.
Thank You Pawel, very interesting comments.
DeleteDescription of "reload speed training' brought to immediate mind the Royal Army's long held rifle training exercise informally termed a "Mad Minute". Basically, using a standard issue 10-round Lee-Enfield rifle, minimum marksmanship qualification required 15 ranked hits on a regulation target at 300 yards. The broader benefit of the "Mad Minute" was it's "practice to make perfect" use as a fire suppression/superiority tool in infantry tactics. Lee-Enfield rifles and "Mad Minute" drills were in use for nearly 60-years. Even longer in former Commonwealth nations. Other than "spray & pray", no idea what replaced such training.
"Auftragstaktik" or outcome versus method tactics is new to me. The role critical thinking in mission performance points me to further study.
s/Great Guns
👍
DeleteI had the privilege of seeing the 'mad minute' performed at Bisley ranges in Surrey, England, C1962 when I was 5 or 6. I didn't really appreciate it at the time but an elderly gent pointed out to me and my father another elderly gent who was one of the surviving 'Old Contemptibiles'. I understand the record number of hits on a 30 inch bull at 300 yards was 38 in one minute. I'm not sure how many shots the old boy got away but it was quite impressive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_minute
DeleteIt seems that as WW! progressed and tactics evolved it individual marksmanship gave way to grenades and Lewis guns. As a point of interest I remember reading an account by a Soviet officer in Afghanistan in the early 1980's who complained that the locals with their .303's were quite capable of pinning down Soviet formations, the Soviets being unable to reply as an AK47 was outranged by a .303
Retired
The Germans were convinced that the Brits all had automatic weapons at Mons in 1914.
DeleteBritish infantry knew how to shoot!
I wish I could remember the name of the book that I read sometime in the late 1980's, on the subject of Naval Fire Control. But 30 plus years have eliminated the title.
ReplyDeleteThe book mentioned a Napoleonic era RN frigate captain, who was smarter than the average bear. He installed a pelorus amidships, and figured out the parallax for each of the guns, in relationship to the pelorus, and had the corrected markings placed on the deck at each gun. He could then, in theory concentrate his guns on a single spot.
Alas, he was let down by early 19th century inconsistencies in powder qualities, bore trueness, variables in shot weight and shape, and a lack of accurate rangefinding ability. The Admiralty of the time also thought he was wasting his time, when he should be concetrating on just getting close, and firing as many balls as possible into the French ships. They also thought the required constant training that would have been required for good results to have been a waste of time, money, and ammunition.
It took the RN until the 1880's, with Percy Scott, to realize " Aim the guns? BRILLIANT! ".
Well, 1880s guns were, due to smokeless powder rifling etc. about as much more accurate than 1800 ones as lee-enfield compared to Brown bess... Add to this stabilization of the guns, and you get the difference.
Delete@ Scott: Phillip Broke perhaps?
DeleteI honestly haven't a clue. It may very well have been. It sounds like something he would have done, with SERAPIS, perhaps.
DeleteMy good Papist wife is doing laps around the beads for Anya. I'm offering up prayers from the BCP.
ReplyDeleteM&C should have been the first of 20 films. Yeah, I'm greedy.
Had Peter Weir said, "Oh we just used a time machine and filmed the whole thing in the 19th Century." I would have believed it.
When Capt. Aubry lead the crew in The Lord's Pray during the funeral service easily half the people in the theater joined in. There were NO calls to "Hush!"
When the phrase "perfidious French" was uttered the audience cheered (and I swear I heard at least one "Huzzah!).
Friend stationed at Norfolk, VA said after a day or 2 sailors were showing up at screenings in dress uniforms.
Thanks Stretch.
Delete