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Now comments on posts older than five days go straight to moderation. Under the hood here at the Chant there is a way to check for that, but I will also get an email if someone comments on an older post. Which was the case Sunday night. The comment was as follows (verbatim) ...
Hello OldAFSarge.I have a special request about this post : is it purely fictional or is it based on an actual precise event ? You see, I live in the area and have been metaldetecting the precise area your post is mentioning ( the road from Beho to gouvy/limerle ) and i have found remnants of a Tiger one which by the looks of the damage on the relics, pretty much exploded violently. I'm alors interested by the fact that you attributed numbers to the tigers of your post ( like 412 ) which fits percectly with the only unit that could have been there at the time (S.Pz.Abt 506, of wich the 4th company was the only one equipped with tiger 1 tanks, and had numbers which started with 4XX from " 401 to 414 "). So my question is globally the following : Is the story entirely fictional but based on historical correctness, or do you have an actual report from an engagement that happened there and you wrote this story based on it ? Because if it's the first case, then you did a great job with historical accuracy, and if it is the second case, you might be the source i'm desperately looking for on the internet as i can't find the origin of the damn Tiger I found in the woods !Sincerely,A Belgian history digger.
My stories, at least the historical ones, are written after doing enough research to make sure things are as accurate as I can make them. To find out that a Belgian lover of history has discovered the remnants of a Tiger tank in that area of Belgium was, to be honest, absolutely thrilling. To have it be a Tiger I, of which only the 4th company of the 506th Heavy Tank battalion had as its equipment, was even more thrilling. I might add, Panzer 413 was a Tiger I of that battalion.
I answered his comment with ...
It is based on the actual unit and their presence in the Ardennes in December of 1944. The account itself is fictional. Please contact me if you find more information. This is absolutely fascinating to me. Thank you for reaching out!
Now when our "Belgian history digger" friend followed up with a second comment, late Sunday/early Monday, my excitement grew ...
Thanks for the quick answer !
I understand what you mean, and it's quite interesting that your story matches with something that seem to have happened in a similar manner and in the same place during ww2, great job !I still have to look but it's very hard to find info on this tiger i found, but i'll keep you updated if i manage to find anything more than what i've already stated. If you want i can send you the pictures of what was found via email or private message if it is possible.
I'm really looking forward to hearing back from this gentleman. When I do, I will post it here.
Speaking of tanks ...
The opening photo is one of my favorite tanks, not that particular model of tank mind you, but the actual physical vehicle itself, which was the very first German tank I got to see in person. (Yes, I've seen more since, but only Panthers, which is cool, but there are so many more. One of my dreams is to get to the Bovington Tank Museum some day.) I wrote about how I came to visit that particular vehicle here. You can read more on this particular tank here.
Now that being said I feel compelled to explain the numbers you see on the turrets of World War II German tanks. Hollywood always seems to think that the Germans painted iron crosses on the turrets of their tanks. For the most part they did not, unless it was an enemy tank which they'd captured and put to their own use. (The Germans, being short of nearly everything needed to fight a major mechanized war used a lot of captured equipment.) Early in the war they did paint a large white cross on the turrets. The Poles found those of excellent use as aiming points. (Good article on all that is here.)
The white cross evolved to have a dark center (see below) and on German built vehicles moved down to the hull of the vehicle.
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| Soviet T-34s in German service. Note the large iron cross on the turrets and the tank commander cupolas fitted from the Pzkw III. Source |
For their platoon/company commander, the Germans found it useful to enable those chaps to be able to identify the other vehicles in their unit at a glance. That's where the turret numbers came in. Not sure how that would work when you're buttoned up, your tank is moving, and maybe enveloped in smoke or dust, but hey, couldn't hurt, right?
Anyhoo, maybe cool things coming out of Belgium in the near future. I hope so!
Bis gleich!¹
¹ See you soon!
The bottom ones would be Pzkw-34(r)?
ReplyDeleteActually (and I did not know this) they were designated by the Germans as Pzkw T34-747(r).
DeleteI hope he sends you information as a Christmas Present.
ReplyDeleteIn hand, with permission to post.
DeleteA most interesting development Sarge, here's one occurrence where The Internet is Forever is a good thing.
ReplyDeleteIndeed, I'm glad the chap found the blog. Pictures of some of his finds are forthcoming.
DeleteI remember the era that tanks were thought of as land cruisers. The Naval idea of a "fast moving" armored firepower platform to demolish other navy units.
ReplyDeleteFirepower-protection-mobility. The old ongoing dance. The rude folks keep adding new and interesting ways to destroy your (Cue Darth Vader VOICEOVER) "Do not be so proud of this technological terror". with torpedo boats (death from below), submarines, TOW Missiles and even the NEW SNUB FIGHTER The Drone...
War the hobby of mankind since forever... The rock, the club, the sharp rock, the sharp rock on a stick and so on.
I was mildly surprised that the Tiger was gasoline powered. I thought German tanks were diesel powered.
Something else to thank Hollywood for, that whole diesel versus gasoline thing in German tanks.
DeleteAn interesting rabbit hole you opened Sarg :-)
DeleteGot into synthetic fuel production of Germany during the war and so on.
T34 was diesel so captured units had that also as a logistics problem in addition to ammo differences.
The Germans took a lot of 76 mm anti-tank guns into their service in 1941 (they captured a lot of them). They also captured a lot of 76 mm ammunition as well.
DeleteUsing the T-34s presented a larger problem (because of the fuel for one thing) but also because the T-34 has a very distinctive silhouette. In a fight you're not going to have a lot of time to check the markings on a strange tank. Shoot first or maybe die right away.
Most captured tanks were used in the rear, like in anti-partisan operations. But in a pinch ...
You use what you have to use.
Well done! Paint a gold "E" on the side of your keyboard! It's always nice to know that you got something right and may have contributed to the understanding of history.
ReplyDeleteLooking forward to the information from Belgium.
It is kinda cool.
DeleteThat is super cool Sarge! It is like the ultimate win for the historian, to find out that what they wrote about based on data and perhaps filled in with gaps about has a real basis in reality.
ReplyDelete(In a strange twist of fate, I was also reminded in a reading this morning that the original German word for "tank" was "Raupenschlepperpanzerkampfwagen", or "a caterpillar-like, self-moving, armored war wagon". Talk about about foreshadowing...)
I do love the way German words come into being.
DeleteYou mention Bovington Tank Museum but check out the YT channel 'The Australian Armour & Artillery Museum' for some very interesting & entertaining videos. One long term project worth watching is their restoration (to a running condition) of a Stug III - amazing stuff!
ReplyDeleteThe guys working there a pleasure to watch and don't take themselves too seriously. They are true craftsmen.
That's one of the YouTube channels I subscribe to, they do brilliant work. It's something to see something come in barely recognizable, then drive out under its own power. They are truly craftsmen.
DeleteRight! And I'm always impressed with what Beau can do with a torch and that beastly metal press! :)
DeleteTheir installation of a hydraulic drive system on that Panzer I was brilliant.
They always seem to find a way.
DeleteI went to Bovington the other week (oldest son lives nearby so its a good place to go). The museum is constantly changing what is on display and a new display about Ukraine is due to open next year. They also have a new restoration hall where I assume you can see tanks being worked on. WE went on a Sunday so it was closed. One thing that struck me was that Soviet/Russian tanks all appeared to have designed for shorties, I am 6'5" and so are my sons so we definitely would not be AFV crew. The other thing was that western tanks/AFV's appear to have been built with crew habitability/survivability in mind as well as ease of operation. It was mentioned upthread about the use of diesel, from what I can see most UK tanks/AFV's used petrol during WW2, the change to diesel came later. I've also read accounts of the Maybach engines having to run every few hours or they would seize up.
ReplyDeleteRetired
Soviet tank design cared not at all for the crew. The shortness of the crew is something of a feature, they can build the tank a lot lower making it harder to hit.
DeleteThat Maybach engine thingy was one of the main goals/issues in the movie "Kelly's Heroes." The Tigers needed to keep the oil flowing in their engines and thus, in a play to German efficiency, all three turned over their engines at the same time, thus allowing Oddball's Sherman to sneak into town.
DeleteAs to short crews, the original Renault FT and the various licensed versions also had maximum height requirements, especially for the driver.
My grandfather was a Renault FT crewman, driver to be specific. No, he was not a tall man. (Nor am I!)
DeleteWhat a neat thing, your story & a 79 year old dead German tank having that much in common today!
ReplyDeleteThe Bovington Tank Museum is in England... I heard that before too long you're going to have some time to do things you want to do...
If I may point out that space A travel goes that way....
https://www.baseops.net/spaceatravel
https://www.baseops.net/spaceatravel/locations
Now that's a good resource to have!
DeleteLife imitates art!
ReplyDeleteThe fact that your fiction matches relics in the ground so closely is a real tribute to your research and attention to detail and correctly fitting so many pieces of the puzzle together. That makes your stories so enjoyable both for the casual reader, and the obsessive "rivet counter" nerds.
Looking forward to the added info.
Since you will be pretty much in the neighborhood anyway when you go to Bovington, might as well cross the channel and visit the Belgian site in person! Your calendar is where you schedule stuff YOU want to do, not where other people tell you what to do.
JB
I was just thinking how I need to get back to Belgium.
DeleteI just won't tell the wife about slipping in yet another visit to Waterloo. (I mean, you can actually tour Hougoumont now!)
You tell him JB!
DeleteAbout the wife and another visit to Waterloo, like you said don't mention it and just do it.. act surprised when you find yourself at Waterloo! "Gee, I wonder how this happened?"
DeleteHarder to do if she pays attention to this blog... :-)
Good luck!
Sales pitch for The Missus- "Dear, I would love to take you to Paris to see the restored Cathedral de Notre Dame. Let's go on [date]. You know, with this writing business I have now, if we just added a couple of stops at military history sites, it would be a deductible business expense. We'll have great fun!"
DeleteYou can easily set up a sole proprietorship or LLC for your author business. It will require some record keeping, and you will need to show a profit 3 years out of 5 to make losses in the other two years deductible. Or, just to it for fun as you are unlikely to ever get rich writing, even if sitting in a room full of keyboards being pounded on by monkeys hoping to duplicate the works of Shakespeare.
As the Nike (non Ajax, non-Hercules) folks say "Just do it."
JB
Rob #1 - He does have a point.
DeleteRob #2 - I can see it now, "Um, Waterloo, what a surprise. Guess I made a wrong turn somewhere."
DeleteJB - Now there's a plan!
DeleteSo cool! Reading about WWll in 7th grade (1963) got me "into" reading recreationally, before it was just dreaded homework. Thanks for dragging us around on your historic tours though fictionalized history. Entertaining and educational, BOTH, at the same time! The amazing thing I've decided, is that your knowledge and research, make the likelihood of your described situations and battles, 70-90% probable. Like being there.
ReplyDeleteI try.
DeleteThanks, Tree Mike.
"Belgian history digger" here ;).
ReplyDeleteI really enjoy reading your blog and will continue to do so. If you come to Belgium one day feel free to message me, i would gladly show you my collection and the spots where the relics where found. The only limitation that I have is exams ( i'm still studying in university) and as you can guess it takes a LOT of my time. Aside from that, I take a lot of pleasure in sharing my finds. I'm 'lucky' to be born here in the ardennes where every house and field has a story to tell about ww2 and most specificaly the battle of the bulge.
Good to know. I'll definitely look you up when I get back over there!
DeleteI wonder. I remember when the USSR collapsed overnight some soviet army units simply abandoned their tanks wherever they were and some drove them into the woods and then walked away. I don't suppose any old German tanks ended up just parked in the woods somewhere long after the war.....OTGH, there were plenty of stories of underground bunkers stuffed with war materials turning up well into the 90s.
ReplyDeleteThey seem to find old German vehicles in rivers and lakes from time to time. Our "local" museum has a Panther dredged out of a lake in Poland many years after war. Thing looks like it just rolled off the production line now.
Delete