Well juvat, we need to get that stuff from where it is to where it's needed, right?
Yeah.
However, it shouldn't have to go through some of the more populated areas of the state without the people and governments in those areas at least having an input.
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| Source |
The section of the pipeline between Junction and where it crosses I-35 is probably the fastest growing part of the state. Additionally, it is also one of the largest tourist areas in the state. Finally, it is also the second most visited wine region in the world. Napa would be first.
But juvat, they'll engineer it to minimize the impact on the public, won't they?
RIIIIIIIGHT!!!!
"In Texas, oil and gas companies choose intrastate pipeline routes with no oversight from the public, elected officials or regulatory body. They are the only private entities that are granted the ability to use eminent domain to take private property without public input." Emphasis mine. Source
But juvat, they'll pay for the right to build won't they?
Theoretically. They are supposed to pay fair market value for the property, but that is the fair market value on the day of the taking, AKA when the property is condemned. So, almost by definition, the fair market value of condemned property is what they say it is.
But juvat, Texas is a big state, and you're just a small chunk of property, surely you won't be affected, right?
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| All the lines on the map, other than roads are property lines, some of which, based on the property names, have been in the same family since the area was first settled. |
Well, grasshopper, the property I bought 21 years ago is in that blue circle which is about 1 mile in diameter.
So...yeah, it's personal and I'm pissed.
Judges should NOT be making these kinds of decisions. This sucks. Good luck with this mess.
ReplyDeleteEminent domain has always been a terrible idea.
Ok, the Judge was actually correct. He ruled on the law as it is written, not as we might want it to be. (Great, NOW someone does their job as they should.) However, there were two bills before the Texas Legislature that would have brought petroleum companies under the same procedures as other energy companies (electric and wind). Since there seems to be a wind generator on every hill west of here, that seems to be a reasonable bill. However, both the State Senate and House took no action on it. So the bills died at the end of the legislative session. Boys and girls, we elected you to do your job. Do it. Vote one way or the other, and like big boys and girls, accept the consequences. Don't be frickin' chicken and do nothing. That's the big source of my irritation.
DeleteEminent domain seems like a bad-idea-we-actually-need kind of thing, but it relies too much on all parties being rational. Unfortunately, neither side is actually incentivized to behave, especially not the property-takers. (Who, naturally, are the ones with enough money to buy the laws they want.)
DeleteAgain, rumor and innuendo are prevalent here, so fact is elusive. However, the local chant is "No eminent domain for private gain." The company has not made it clear what the benefits are for the local communities affected (which may be none) and/or the state in general. People around here are fairly proud Texans. If there is a significant gain for the state as a whole in doing this, I think most would come to terms with it.
DeleteMy point was that laws should be written such that we don't need bloody judges to interpret them. Of course, the damn things are written by lawyers, aren't they?
DeleteSigh...
Well, you're right. I think the plaintiffs were hoping for an interpretive judge, and got one who played by the rules.
DeleteYou wouldn't need judges to interpret laws if all parties agreed on the law's meaning. Maybe possible in a language other than English.
DeleteA Lawyer
Novel concept there, Mark.
DeleteI run out to Del Rio on occasion. Those 36 inch pipes are moving around all over out that way. Last time I went to Tilden, there was pipeline down there too. Heading to Corpus from the Permian Basin.
ReplyDeleteTexas is almost all steel pipe under the ground. But I didn't know they bought the land they ran on. I thought they buried the line, then resurfaced it to grade after paying an easement fee. Checkout pipline101.org We had those things running all over where I grew up.
Remember the "Big Inch"??? https://aoghs.org/petroleum-in-war/oil-pipelines/
Yeah, I know. The rumor going around here is that it was going to be a 42" above ground pipe carrying natural gas (in gaseous form). I'm not a petroleum engineer, but lightning storms are common. The company, Kinder Morgan, has not done a good job of dispelling those rumors. When the Pres came to a town hall meeting (this is second hand also), he came across as "Zis is ze VAY it vill be done!" and little hard info. Surprisingly he didn't seem to win many converts.
DeleteI did some more digging on their website last night and it looks like it will be buried. Which makes more sense to me. Still, 2 billion cubic feet of natural gas coming daily through a pipe no more than a mile from me, is disturbing.
My dad worked as a corrosion engineer and project manager for Colombia Gas Transmission, working with big pipeline projects - and failures.
DeleteI remember some cool photos of a massive crater, and a fifteen-foot section of pipe found a quarter-mile away, by the highway (like, spitting distance from crushing cars). As best they could tell, it came down near-vertically, since the adjacent treeline suffered no damage. I wonder how high it went?
(At least that one didn’t ignite. That’s when the *real* fun begins.)
Yeah, that's my concern. Obviously.
Delete"it was going to be a 42" above ground pipe carrying natural gas (in gaseous form)."
DeleteI sometimes find myself in that condition.
Sorry, I have begun the cocktail hour and I couldn't resist.
D4, You're authorized. I forgot to visit the Class 6 store today. Mañana seguro.
DeleteBest of luck juvat, fingers crossed but not sounding good. That procedure wouldn't fly here, no oversight AND eminent domain, but that doesn't do you any good.
ReplyDeleteYeah, see my response to Sarge's comment. Must be nice to be king. "Hey, I'm an oilman. I'm going to build a pipeline through your bedroom. Have a nice day"
DeleteDamn.
ReplyDeleteYep
DeleteHopefully the route stays near the projected route and away from Rancho Juvat....
ReplyDeleteMy dad lives in the Marcellus Shale region, and likened the developers to termites. They get in, and they just drill and drill and lay pipelines and more pipelines (and ruin the roads)...
Texas highways are generally pretty well maintained, but the last time we went to New Mexico, we went through Pecos. Not only were the highways beat up, as you said, but oil trucks were driving like a bat outta hell. Just what we need on US 290. With all the wineries around (every car no doubt having a designated driver) and tired, time pressed oil trucks. Well, nothing bad will happen there.
DeleteI'd take a pipeline over trucks or trains every time. There's an ethanol unloading terminal about 2 1/2 miles down the road from our neighborhood. Ethanol can't go in pipelines, so its trucks and trains. The rail line and siding for it runs behind our complex, and there's almost always tank cars parked there as they get shuttled in and out for unloading into tanker trucks. Fortunately the trucks can get to the freeway and on to the oil terminal without driving past us. Rail lines are federally controlled, so the best the city could do was get some extra funds for the specialty firefighting involved. Along that rail right of way is a pipeline taking petroleum to the same oil terminal where it meets up with the ethanol. Only reason I know its there is Kinder mails me a safety notice every year.
ReplyDelete/
L.J.
An existing facility or pipeline allows the property buyer to assess the price/risk tradeoff and make a conscious decision. "I'm putting a pipeline through your property" forces a decision "deal with the risk" or sell the property at a considerable loss. I'd like Texas to allow me more say in that conversation.
DeleteOh AAARRRGGGHHH!!!
ReplyDeleteWell...not exactly what I said...but similar sentiments ;-)
DeleteSorry to hear, Juvat. Hopefully everything works out all right.
ReplyDeleteThanks, We'll see.
Delete30 years in and the son of a way better man. My first inclination is burn it.
ReplyDeleteI'm so going to have to work on civilization.
While I don't feel proud of the thought, that WAS one of my first.
DeleteThe temptation to quote H.L.Mencken and then go forth and make it so, is often nearly overwhelming.
DeleteWhich one?
DeleteThink black flags and throats.
DeleteAhhh, I see!
DeleteWasn't it in Texas where they used eminent domain to take homes so they could put up a new car dealers lot? As I recall the justification was more tax dollars from a car dealer.
ReplyDeleteThat's Texas is my thought..
I hope the pipeline doesn't go thru your garage.
Hadn't heard of that, but it's possible. The only one I found like that was in New Hampshire. However, #5 here talks about a case where a house was taken for a shopping mall. The husband was refused an extension and had to leave his wife's deathbed to move out of the home. That occurred in Texas.
DeleteI hope for the best outcome for you ( the only thing I can write that meets the standards of OldAFSarge's blog ).
ReplyDeletePaul L. Quandt
I have standards? 😁
DeleteThanks, Paul.
DeleteQuite high standards, actually!
Delete😉
DeleteAnd here I thought you were going to rant about the Austin city commission 'voting' to allow the homeless to pitch tents on sidewalks, like in LA or San Fran.
ReplyDeleteYes, the pipeline doth somewhat sucketh. But... Well... You know... Yes. It personally stinks, but it is overall a goodly thing. Overall. As long as they pay fair value and don't thrash the land putting it in. Pipelines are far superior to wheeled transportation of oil products. Far far superior.
I wish they'd just get around to pumping gas off the Ancestral Beans swamp that they have wellheads on but never pump off any. Would be nice for a little chunk of change to come rolling down to the Junior Beans after taking care of Mom Beans and the Brothers Beans.
And I hope this doesn't affect your property at all. Or those of your friends and acquaintances.
DeleteSounds like you need to threaten your state legislators a bit.
Yeah, that floored MBD and SIL when I told them about that this weekend. Evidently, but not surprisingly, it received little coverage by the Austin media. Ooops, I mean Moscow Pravda.
DeleteWell, you can't get to my property directly from the highway they're following, so....But....
DeleteI started working backwards from the blue circle, google maps, and various photos you posted, and located Rancho Juvat. And then I realized you posted a satellite photo of it, in a post I know I read. So at least I know my deductions were correct.
ReplyDeleteIf that’s your definition of “heavily populated region” - well... Texas is different, I guess. :)
My side isn't all that heavily populated. However, it is growing quite rapidly. And, relatively speaking, it's much more heavily developed (a better word perhaps) than counties to the north of us as well as south of I-10. Going south of I-10 pretty much forces them to go round San Antonio to the south. However, going north and picking a way across I-35 north of Austin, difficult but not impossible, avoids much more of that development. If they're paying for easement based on current fair market value, (doubtful) they'd most likely save money that way. Mostly ranch land. There's a very large piece of property west of me that is on the path. More money than Croesus, story is she pulled a shotgun on the surveyors. In my mind, starting from a position of Eminent Domain and building a pipewine at least halfway across Texas was not a shrewd business move.
DeletePipeLine, A little too early for wine, but I might end up needing a pipeline for it.
DeleteAre you sure you didn't mean to say,
ReplyDeleteI bought 21 years ago is… that blue circle which is about 1 mile in diameter.
Or, perhaps I misread it. Anyway, on a more sober note, I am sorry that all of this government stuff (read otherwise) has attacked you. We were attacked by them in Santa Cruz years ago. Private property rights have been disappearing at an alarming rate in the past twenty years. We say that we own the property, but just try to not pay property taxes for a year or so, you'll see. EVERYONE here (sorry) google "agenda 21".
I'll lay my tinfoil hat aside, serve Miss Jeanie's supper and refill my glass. Good night all.
Yeah, I suspect that the property rights evaporation has been going on for a while. Just never realized it had gotten this bad. Hope Miss Jeanie is responding well. She's in our prayers.
DeleteYou needed a good berm to backstop your rifle range, didn't you? Now you know which side of the property to put it on!
ReplyDeleteI know. 'Tain't funny when it happens to you. Really sucks, Juvat. We'll hope for the best!
The problem is nobody's saying what the options are. As best I understand (which quite likely bears no relationship to reality), they make an offer, if you refuse, they make a second, if you refuse, you lose your property. Sounds so very....civil.
DeleteMaybe you could discover something historic on your property? Even if you have to bury it there yourself!
ReplyDeleteI've got a friend who married into one of the very old families in the area. He discovered 13000 year old arrow heads on his property. Maybe....
DeleteThat's gonna suck... Sorry to hear that.
ReplyDeleteYeah, me too!
DeleteWill they condemn the property, or just take an easement? High pressure pipelines are not as big in cross-section as you might think. They may just bury the pipe across your property and disappear. As long as they don't bury it through the middle of your living room...
ReplyDeleteJuvat,
ReplyDeleteSorry that you are in that position. I have dealt with the petroleum industry here in Texas. They are big time jerks (I would use another word but I probably would not get published). I was in the Barnett Shale play in Hill County 15 years ago. If they bring the pipeline across your land you will still have the use of the surface. It will just suck to have the pipeline that close. I was told they could run a pipeline with in tens of feet of a dwelling if they wanted to.
This all stems from the influence the oil companies had over the Texas Legislature about 100 years ago. They got laws passed that favored them. Those laws have not been overhauled. I was told by a lawyer that it is so bad that if a petroleum company had a lease to the minerals under a piece of land and the people occupying the land were only surface owners, theoretically the petroleum company could bulldoze down the peoples house if it suited the petroleum companies needs.
My caution to you is to get a petroleum knowledgeable lawyer and create a unique lease if they want to run the pipeline across your property. Do not use the per-prepared forms they will want to use as those forms have some serious flaws. I speak from experience.