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| "Moskva" ("Moscow") (ex-"Slava", which means "Glory") is the lead ship of the Project 1164 Atlant class of guided missile cruisers in the Russian Navy. The Project 1164 Atlant class was developed as "Aircraft carriers killer". This warship was used in the 2008 Russia-Georgia War. The Black Sea. Sevastopol bay. (Source) |
Apparently the Russian guided missile cruiser Moskva is now an artificial reef.
Russia claims that onboard munitions detonated.
Ukraine claims that she was hit by two anti-ship missiles.
Both could be true ...
We live in scary times.
sent another instalment of Ewok Report
ReplyDeletecommented on that one as well
Got it!
DeleteLaunched in 1982 and a bit over 12,000 tons........odd that the last surface warship lost during conflict was the ARA General Belgrano, sunk in .......1982. Huh.
ReplyDeleteSo much for memory, launched in 1979 and commissioned early 1983.....sigh.
DeleteBoth ships were very similar in size. Of course Moskva was much more modern. Still age wise they were similar, over 40 years... There goes 1/5th of Russian cruiser force...
DeleteNylon12 #1 - Some would find it interesting that surface warships still have a role to play. Other than protecting an aircraft carrier.
DeleteNylon12 #2 - Memory, the 2nd thing to go ...
DeletePaweł - I guess it's better than rusting at some forgotten pier.
DeleteNavies have to come to grips with the fact that relatively cheap weapons have made most surface warship obsolete. The Israelis had to learn this about tanks. The Armenians also had a lesson in this recently about air power. War technology changes and it gets very expensive to ignore those changes.
ReplyDeleteSurface warfare has been pretty obsolete since the invention of the aircraft.
DeleteExcept for those occasions when it hasn't; c.f. Leyte Gulf, Battle of
DeleteBoat Guy
The exception?
DeleteJames makes a great point - like WW I in that respect I suppose; no-one anticipated the technology of machine guns and chemical warfare and sustained artillery bombardment changing the previously held beliefs about how wars were to be fought. Frankly, the U.S. and the West should be learning just as much about how warfare is changing (like, for example, how relatively easy it is to supply anyone with anti-aircraft man portable missiles and destroy millions of dollars worth of aircraft).
ReplyDeleteThe other problem, of course, is if it becomes a "use it or lose it" situation, people start using things.
And yes Sarge - this is my biggest fear. We will only realize that after the fact we have crept into world war, and did so with our eyes open, cheering.
Anyone who is cheering at this point is a serious fool.
DeleteWell, if they had paid attention to the American Civil War, where the Union armies, especially under Grant, had overwhelming artillery supremacy. Then there's the auto or high rate of fire weapons used in the Boer Wars and the Spanish-American War that stacked infantry like cordwood.
DeleteAnd, of course, the whole reason the French 75 came about, due to France's failure in the Franco-Prussian war and the search for ways to not allow the Prussians to get near Paris ever again.
And aviation forces used by the Union in the ACW for artillery spotting and intel and immediate battlefield recon (the US balloon corps.)
Gee, whodathunk any of this was possible before WWI? (We won't get into chemical and biological warfare during the Middle Ages in Europe...)
It's a sad fact that major powers (read European for "major" back in the day) tended to ignore any lessons which came from former colonies or countries which were considered to be "inferior."
DeleteYou can lead a jackass to knowledge, but you can't make him think. (To paraphrase an old saw ...)
Don McCollor)...The Union in the ACW also fielded the first "aircraft" carrier - a balloon tethered to a coal barge drifting down the Potomac river...
DeleteCool.
DeleteAnd, don't forget to keep an eye on the 6. There is more then one front. And no visible why, yet. So, there is something going on, that, needs our attention, while this is going on. More islands in the Pacific? A buildup where? En eco disaster or hidden takeover? It may be a misdirection. Watch this hand, in the glove, pay no attention to the other.
ReplyDeleteYup, don't forget for an instant that Red China is watching all of this.
DeleteI see that scene in my head almost every day now. I used to tell my kids to make their mistakes thoughtfully. Some you won't walk away from.
ReplyDeleteVery true.
DeletePart of the reason for the huge casualties of the Civil War was that the infantry weapon had gone from a 50 yard effective musket to a 500 yard rifle and training and tactics hadn't kept up. Pickett's charge would have been a different story if the Union forces were still equipped with a smooth bore. Grant learned something that was forgotten by WW1 about just how large the disparity of force had to be to take entrenched riflemen with infantry attacks by 1864. It was the real reason that many at the time called him a butcher, it was the only way to take those positions. The World relearned this at The Marne, The Somme, and Verdun.
ReplyDeleteAnother factor in those casualties was that technology needed to control large bodies of troops on the battlefield was still primitive. Drums, bugles, the human voice only traveled so far. The need to keep the men close together in order to exercise tactical control needed to be "unlearned." Those things take time. The radio led to dispersion which led to lower casualties, comparatively speaking. Of course the increase in weapons lethality tended to force more dispersion in order for the unit to survive.
DeleteAll to true, which is why competent lower level officers were so important and why the loss of those officers could be disastrous.
DeleteExactly!
Delete(Don McCollor)...At a higher level, the radio, the field telephone, and the telegraph permitted rapid contact between larger units. At Petersburg, Grant was in telegraphic communication with Washington DC, an army on the James River, Sheridan in the Shenandoah Valley, and Sherman approaching Atlanta...
DeleteDidn't help with unit dispersion but certainly helped to coordinate armies at the operational level.
DeleteHey Old AFSarge;
ReplyDeleteGrant believed that you pay the butcher bill now or pay it later when it will cost more, so pay it now. The Soviets, er i means Russians are showing huge problems with their military in training and logistics, and I am sure that it is giving China ideas...Remember Siberia has a lot of natural resources and once Russia is a international pariah, it would be nothing for China to send their armies north to grab some territories after the Russians shot their bolt trying to subdue Ukraine to appease Putins ego. This misadventure has set the world on a dangerous course and we have that meat puppet in the White House dancing to the tune of his handlers.
The Russians are trying to wage a war of aggression with conscripts, doesn't work very well. It's also why their officer casualties are so high, the lower the troop quality, the more the officers have to led from the front, or accomplish nothing.
DeleteWhile the subject is not one of joy, I just want to thank Sarge and the commentators here. It is refreshing to involved in a discussion with civil and intelligent people.
ReplyDeleteThanks James.
DeleteIf this vessel bombarded Mariupol then it’s demise will be celebrated across Ukraine, short though that joy will be.
ReplyDeleteI believe it's also the ship involved at the beginning of the war with Snake Island.
DeletePs Moskva is a river through the capital. (“Wind of Change” by. ThevSkorpions: ‘…follow the Moskva, down to Gorky Park….🎼. Been humming that tune a lot lately.
ReplyDeleteIndeed it is. The Battle of Borodino in France is known as the Bataille de la Moskova for the very same river, which runs through the battlefield.
Deletehttps://youtu.be/ohOtDA3dTAA
ReplyDeleteA very good tune!
DeleteSeveral less-credible theories I've seen:
ReplyDelete"The Russians were just running an illegal distillery/krokodil lab in the ammo hold, and it caught on fire. "
"The 55 gallon drum full of burning trash that was the only working source of heat on the ship got out of control. All the fire extinguishers were traded for vodka and shapely pieces of wood."
Not as far-fetched as some might think!
DeleteA most important lesson indeed.
ReplyDeleteARA BELGRANO was lost to a British submarine attack during the Falklands. But, more importantly, the last (and AFIK) only combatant ship lost underway to a missile attack was the Israeli destroyer ELAT, sink by a Egyptian (Russian) missile.
In those 55 years, the importance of good technology for the detect to engage sequence has been recognized and improved. But, missiles have become more capable, faster, and better designed to evade detection and countermeasures. And, people are still involved in the decision loop. A targeted ship has to defeat every inbound missile. The attackers only have to get lucky with one, and firing multiple missiles in a salvo greatly increases the chance of at least one getting through. If the possibility exists of multiple threat axis attacks, the defensive problems compound rapidly.
While the loss of MOSKVA is a massive psychological blow, and significant decrease in military power, it is nothing like the sort of upheaval in naval power which would stem from a successful hit on a U.S. aircraft carrier.
While DON leadership is busy celebrating "diversity is our strength" they damn well better have a whole bunch of really smart and powerful people upgrading our ability to respond to cruise missile attacks. I want our very best people working on that, regardless of gender, race, sexual orientation, or religion. Anything less should be a courts martial offense.
How many times has a certain inscrutable power already war-gamed attacks on U.S. ships? Think they will be any better than the Ukranian fighters? Think our sailors are any better prepared than the MOSKVA crew?
As for the crew of MOSKVA, the words of the CO of USS TEXAS at the Battle of Santiago apply: "During the battle, upon watching the burning of the Spanish cruiser Vizcaya, he famously told his men "Don't cheer, boys. The poor devils are dying."
Sic vis pacem para bellum.
John Blackshoe
Good points, John.
DeleteAs to ships lost since ELAT, not so much. Brits lost 2 guided missile destroyers, HMS Sheffield and HMS Coventry in the Falklands. Sheffield was lost to an Exocet, Coventry to dumb bombs from A-4s. They also almost lost HMS Glamorgan to a land based Exocet. Glamorgan was a County class guided missile destroyer ~6000 tons.
DeleteNice list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_sunk_by_missiles
Not counting test shots still a fair number, esp during Iran-Iraq war and Operation Preying Mantis. It is accurate to say none since 1991, although some USN ships during Iraq 1 had a close call shot down by a British type 42.
RAS
"As for the crew of MOSKVA, the words of the CO of USS TEXAS at the Battle of Santiago apply: "During the battle, upon watching the burning of the Spanish cruiser Vizcaya, he famously told his men "Don't cheer, boys. The poor devils are dying.""
DeleteI had not heard this quote before John, but well said. All those who we may feel animosity towards are not the ones dying. The common soldier - us - are.
"Am fear nach gheibh na h-airm 'n am na sith, cha bith iad aige 'nam a chogaidh" - He that does not keep his arms in peace, will not have them in times of war (Scottish Gaelic)
Ryszardsh - Good point, I'd forgotten about the Falklands.
DeleteTB - It is well to remember.
DeleteNice list!
DeleteIt is amazing Germans in WW2 did much of the list... including supoerdreadnought Roma, biggest warship lost to missile yet
Israelis got a little paybnack for Eilat using their Gabriels during tom kippur...
Tanker War hit list shows that merchant ships are extremely vulnerable targets... Warships tend to have at least some point defences, and possibly long range SAM umbrella, not to mention of possible fighter cover...
The list of ships destroyed by German anti-ship missiles in WW2 surprised me. I had no idea there were that many.
DeleteGermans did whole lot of pioneering missile work, first antiship, antitank, and were working on first SAMs as well, those would have been hell on allied bombers have they reached the production - oh and of course V-1 and V-2 pioneering cruise missiles and ballistic missiles... Germans had a lot of skilled scientists and engineers, the Allies eventually won the tech race but it was close call multiple times...
DeleteThose engineers often worked at cross purposes. The Nazi economy was chaotic as Hell.
Deletesmall syuation update - Russians confirmed Moskva sank while being towed to safety (presumably Sevastopol)
ReplyDeletealso telling: while not admitting Ukrainian attack, they moved rest of the ships further away from Odessa...
https://news.usni.org/2022/04/13/russian-navy-confirms-severe-damage-to-black-sea-cruiser-moskva-crew-abandoned-ship
Yup, he's on the bottom.
DeleteA big factor in all of these losses cited has been Damage Control -or lack thereof. Time was I'd have been confident a USN CVN could take a missile hit; after Bonhomme Richard I'm far less sanguine.
ReplyDeleteSoviet ships were not designed for DC as much as we used to do. Design is a factor, but training and discipline count as much if not more. I'm afraid we lack both these days. The loss of HMS Sheffield led us to train for "mass conflagrations" such is obviously not in fashion these days.
Boat Guy
Probably no time for DC training what with all the diversity/inclusivity/blah-blah-blah training that is being shoved down the sailors' throats!
DeleteRussian sailors are totally not diverse nor inclusive. Didnt help them too much in the DC area (though the ship design itself was not helping, all those missile tubes on deck were critical hits waiting to happen...)
DeleteUSN in WW2 pioneered the DC concept to the result of carriers that IJN would have lost being saved and repaired - most famous being Yorktown before Midway. Later cases as USS Stark and the one Burke attacked by suicide boat in Yemen proved that DC skills were kept alive. I hope after BHR fire the training should be intensified, especially as we see firsthand lethality of modern naval battlefield...
Enterprise and Saratoga surviving entire WW2 despite being hit multiple times proved the resilience of USN DC concept. Later accidents like Forrestal and Enterprise fires in 1960s were important lessons as well...
DeletePaweł #1 - Key point to remember is that Bonhomme Richard was undergoing maintenance, things get sloppy.
DeletePaweł #2 - Wearing flammable clothing and too much paint on the interior surfaces are still issues.
Delete